Maj7 with a b9?

[timscarey]

This is fun topic but yea not that related to Jazz Guitar Forum.
Reg

Right? I mean, most of these chords aren't even playable on a guitar.

awesome topic though. It's got me thinking for sure...

Last night I compared these 3 scales as parents of the C major scale

C Ionian
(C raises to C#) = D Mel Min
(G raises to G#) = A Harm Maj (the source of the altered Maj 7)

and found that the resultant chord types from each scale where extremely similar with just a few differences.

C Parent

C^----Dm7----Em7----F^-------G7-----Am7----Bm7(b5) = C ionian
C#alt--Dm6----Em7---F^(#5)---G7------A7-----Bm7(b5) = D mm
C#alt--Dm6----E7----F^(#5)--G#dim^--A^----Bm7(b5) = A HM


After trying to use A harmonic Major as a source for improve over these chords I was a little blown away, it seems to totally work, and in the cases of the highlighted chords, the seemingly chromatic upper extensions from the A HM scale work (although extremely dissonant) over the lower structures.

Funny thing, these are the first 4 (2 and 4 are the same ) scales in the Lydian Chromatic Concept, although George compares them all from the same root, comparing them this way seems to really show the similarities and I think gives clues to their usage

I also cross referenced the chords under discussion with Hindemith's theory and found that he would consider all of the chords mentioned as part of "Group 4" loosely defined as "altered dominants" because of the presence of one or more tritones and minor 2nds. The Maj7(#9 #5) however falls into "Group 3" because of it's lack of a tritone, the same is true when the perfect 5th is added on top of the same chord.

As for his explanation of why Maj7(#11 b9) and Maj(#5 #9) work so well...

it's because of the interval of a 5th between the #11/b9 and the #5/#9 in the voicings.

He would also consider the roots of these chords to be "E" (assuming we're building them from C) because the strongest and lowest interval in the chord is the P5th between the E and B. I tend to have problems with Hindemith's assessment of chord roots though, while it is reliable in most cases, it doesn't always jive with common practice.

okay, I'll shut up now, thanks.

[Reg]

For some standard examples of poly and slash chords...

A over Bb = Bbmaj7 #9 #11 from Harmonic Minor, b6th degree
G over C = Cmaj9
Bmin over C = Cmaj9 #11
D over C = Cmaj13 #11
D- over G7 = G9
F over G bass note = G11 0r G9 sus no 5th
F6 over G bass = G9sus
G over Cmin = C- maj9
D- over C- = C-maj13
F over C- = C-maj13
E- over D- = C-13

Can become voicing plug and play game.

Becomes more complicated when applied as Tim"s application and even more so when applying poly or Bitonalities with harmonic organizational systems.

Just for reference for those of you not aware...

Major and Minor chords

Imaj7 9 11 13........ 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13
IImin7 9 11 13.........1, b3, 5, b7, 9, 11, 13
IIImin7 b9 11 b13......1, b3, 5, b7 b9, 11 b13
IVmaj7 9, #11, 13......1, 3, 5, 7 9, #11 13
V7 9 11 13 ...............1, 3, 5, b7 9, 11, 13
VImin7 9 11 b13.........1, b3, 5, b7, 9, 11, b13
VII-7b5 b9, 11,b13.....1, b3, b5, b7, b9, 11, b13

Melodic Minor

I- maj7 9 11 13...........1, b3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13
II-7 b9 11 13.............1, b3, 5, b7, b9, 11, 13
bIIImaj7#5 9 #11 13...1, 3, #5, 7, 9, #11, 13
IV7 9 #11 13................1, 3, 5, b7 9, #11, 13
V7 9 11 b13..................1, 3, 5, b7, 9, 11, b13
VI-7b5 9 11 b13...........1, b3, b5 b7, 9, 11, b13
VII-7b5 b9 b11 b13.....1, b3, b5, b7, b9, b11, b13..(altered, V7altered)

Harmonic Minor

I-maj7 9 11 b13...........1, b3, 5, 7, 9, 11, b13
II-7b5 b9 11 13 ...........1, b3, b5, b7, b9, 11, 13
bIIImaj7#5 9 11 13......1, 3, #5, 7, 9, 11, 13
IV-7 9 #11 13...............1, b3, 5, b7, 9 #11, 13
V7 b9 11 b13................1, 3, 5, b7, b9, 11, b13
bVImaj75 #9 #11 13...1, 3, 5, 7, #9, #11, 13
VIIdim7 b9 b11 b13.....1, b3, b5, bb7, b9, b11, b13

Harmonic Major

Imaj7 9 11 b13..............1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, b13
II-7b5 9 11 13 ...............1, b3, b5, b7, 9, 11, 13
III-7 b9 b11 b13.............1, b3, 5, b7, b9 b11, b13 *(III7#9)
IV-maj7 9, #11 13...........1, b3, 5, 7, 9, #11, 13
V7 b9 11 13 ....................1, 3, 5 b7, b9, 11, 13 * used a lot
bVImaj7 #5 #9, #11, 13..1, 3, #5, 7, #9, #11, 13 * used a lot
VIIdim7 b9 11 b13...........1, b3, b5,bb7, b9, 11, b13

Double Harmonic major

Imaj7 b9 11 b13
bIImaj7 #9 #11 #13
IIIdim7 9 #11 b13
IV-maj7 9 #11 b13
V7b5 b9 11 13
bVImaj7#5 #9 11 13
bVII ??? usually inversion of other degree or bVII loc.bb3 bb7 , sometimes susb9 application... that would be stretching it.

[Reg]

Cool Tim... yea I would consider non jazz practice and more with compositional applications for organizing different harmonic systems for creating different types of function or at least base reference for creating relationships for composition... fun, but different medium maybe.
Reg

[timscarey]

Cool Tim... yea I would consider non jazz practice and more with compositional applications for organizing different harmonic systems for creating different types of function or at least base reference for creating relationships for composition... fun, but different medium maybe.
Reg

Yeah, I think you are right. I tend to look at these things from the composer's perspective, however, with enough experience, things find their way into your ear and can manifest in a solo without even thinking about it.

There was a time when I never used Melodic minor in my solos because I never heard it naturally, over the years that has changed, hopefully I'll be able to bring in some of these new sounds with enough practice and familiarity

[Reg]

Yeah, I think you are right. I tend to look at these things from the composer's perspective, however, with enough experience, things find their way into your ear and can manifest in a solo without even thinking about it.

There was a time when I never used Melodic minor in my solos because I never heard it naturally, over the years that has changed, hopefully I'll be able to bring in some of these new sounds with enough practice and familiarity

+ 10000000
That's exactly how I approach and think... always have.
Reg