cycle of fifths/piano/voice leading

[brwnhornet59]

Hey man...When practicing cycles like this you may do it anyway you want..But if you look at the movements you are back cycling in 5ths..This is the most logical course of action....At least on guitar...

[JohnRoss]

What exactly justifies going down to the B? After all, going up a 4th to a B is closer.

It's the same. People's ears don't really distinguish between one octave and another, going up a fourth is the same as going down a fifth. If there is any musical difference at all, it is that going down has a tiny bit more of a feeling of 'finishing', which is one reason why classical theorists prefer to think 'cycle of fifths' where jazz theorists say 'cycle of fourths'. But really, functionally, they are practically identical.

Is it voice leading?

No, it's chord root movement. I may be wrong, excuse me if I am, but I get the feeling you don't quite understand what voice leading actually means, so here goes. Voice leading is dividing up the notes of your chords up as if they were being sung by different voices, e.g., bass, tenor, contralto and soprano, then trying to make the different parts they have to sing really easy for them, as easy or nearly as easy as possible, which means no jumps or only small ones. A jump of a fourth or fifth is an easy-ish jump because it is common, but in fact it is a moderately big one, about as big as you can expect an amateur sight-reading singer to make reliably, and for voice leading you should use smaller jumps whenever possible. For example, in the bass part of this I - IV you are talking about, you could stay on the same note, instead of going C - F you could stay on the C. Or you could go from the third (E) of the I to the root (F) of the IV. Or from the fifth (G) down to the root (F), et cetera, i.e., you need to work the possibilities out for yourself.

Bear in mind that for this kind of stuff, your chords should not normally be in harmony as close as you are talking about, not all the time, having everything in the same octave is far too limiting. Generally, you move between open and close harmony - as you are so keen on knowing what pianists do, for this kind of thing they almost always use both hands, for example playing one or two voices with the left and two or three with the right hand.

And voice leading is only one aspect of voicing. In general, voice leading is most applicable to the 'harmony' voices first (let's say the inner ones in this example, the tenor and contralto), then to the bass, because this is usually the most important voice for 'stating' the harmony, and lastly to the melody voice (let's say the top one in this example, the soprano) because the melody needs to be the most outstanding and probably the most singular of your voices.

[brwnhornet59]

No, it's chord root movement. I may be wrong, excuse me if I am, but I get the feeling you don't quite understand what voice leading actually means, so here goes.

Agreed..I think this is how the thread got misunderstood from the onset...

[jster]

Thanks for all the replies. Sorry. I was out of town four a couple of days without much internet.

[jster]

Hey man...When practicing cycles like this you may do it anyway you want..But if you look at the movements you are back cycling in 5ths..This is the most logical course of action....At least on guitar...

I am distinguishing backcycling on 5ths, and backcycling on upward 4ths and downward 5ths. Could also backcycle that way. Or backcycling on all upward 4ths. But see below, I'll try to clear things up a bit there.

[jster]

It's the same. People's ears don't really distinguish between one octave and another, going up a fourth is the same as going down a fifth. If there is any musical difference at all, it is that going down has a tiny bit more of a feeling of 'finishing', which is one reason why classical theorists prefer to think 'cycle of fifths' where jazz theorists say 'cycle of fourths'. But really, functionally, they are practically identical.

OK, here we get something really good. Thanks John.

No, it's chord root movement. I may be wrong, excuse me if I am, but I get the feeling you don't quite understand what voice leading actually means, so here goes. Voice leading is dividing up the notes of your chords up as if they were being sung by different voices, e.g., bass, tenor, contralto and soprano, then trying to make the different parts they have to sing really easy for them, as easy or nearly as easy as possible, which means no jumps or only small ones. A jump of a fourth or fifth is an easy-ish jump because it is common, but in fact it is a moderately big one, about as big as you can expect an amateur sight-reading singer to make reliably, and for voice leading you should use smaller jumps whenever possible. For example, in the bass part of this I - IV you are talking about, you could stay on the same note, instead of going C - F you could stay on the C.

Interesting.

Or you could go from the third (E) of the I to the root (F) of the IV. Or from the fifth (G) down to the root (F), et cetera, i.e., you need to work the possibilities out for yourself.

Bear in mind that for this kind of stuff, your chords should not normally be in harmony as close as you are talking about, not all the time, having everything in the same octave is far too limiting.

Generally, you move between open and close harmony - as you are so keen on knowing what pianists do, for this kind of thing they almost always use both hands, for example playing one or two voices with the left and two or three with the right hand.

And voice leading is only one aspect of voicing. In general, voice leading is most applicable to the 'harmony' voices first (let's say the inner ones in this example, the tenor and contralto), then to the bass, because this is usually the most important voice for 'stating' the harmony, and lastly to the melody voice (let's say the top one in this example, the soprano) because the melody needs to be the most outstanding and probably the most singular of your voices.

Great. Thanks, very interesting.

[jster]

Agreed..I think this is how the thread got misunderstood from the onset...

Oh, for sure. I always try to make clear what I am unsure about, so sorry for the confusion. I have a cartoon version of voice leading, mostly derived from watching George Van Eps and listening to Brian Wilson. Hehe. When I looked at the classical resources I was scared away by those Fuxing different species of principles.(j/k) I that orange book for guitarists, but I don't have it with me. If you have any good links for guitarists, lemme know.

[jster]

OK, I'll try to clear up matters. I like math. I was just working on four (and some eight note) arpeggio patterns. One kind of case (there are others): I love going from, D-7 to G7, keeping the D and the F the same. And dropping the new notes from the botton and adding the new ones at the top. But if you move through the cycle, then you have to break that pattern almost imediately because you are just going to go too high or too low. OK, so then I was just wondering how they teach piano players the cycles. Once I knew that, then I figured I could reverse engineer what they were doing and figure out what pattern rule they are following. Really, the heart of my question has to do with the simplest arpeggio pattern rules for cycles.In another thread, I was told about voice leading for melodic lines, so I mentioned voice leading in my question, maybe not helpfully.

Looking forward, here is what I wonder about. So, there are lots of ways to do these things. OK, so if we have the bass go up down, up down because we don't want to run out of neck. Then what happens to the other voices? And why? I'll work on it today and get back to you with some results. There are lots of possibilities, as folks have said, but I'm interested in the very simplest ones.

Slightly more context: Officially, I work on my arpeggios using 4, 8, 12, 16 note patterns. I run these through the cycles. Although in the near future, I am going to think about other ways to run them. Suggestions are welcome. I am most interested in how they connect with each other. (Joe Elliott got me thinking about giving weight to this whole nearest note thing. I think this is what Reg calls something like traditional single note voice leading and doesn't like. If I have understood him correctly.) So anyway, when I connect them, I am working on doing it in different ways:
-similar phrasing
-similar chord tone (numbers)
-nearest note
-nearest notes
These can be combined, weighted and prioritized in various ways. These days, what I most enjoy doing is just connecting arpeggios. I am interested in other cycles/progressions that are common/edifying. But if there aren't any others beyond fifths, then I will probably just switch to running them over tunes. Everything else on my practice schedule seems dull by comparison. Hehe. Here's the great thing about this practice kick I am on. I swing constantly when I'm practicing! Hehe. Then, down the road, I think I will just start adding all the chord inversions into the arpeggio practice. After that, I'll see if I can pick out the melody. To chord solos starting from arpeggios?? That's the plan any way. Cheers, and thanks for the comments.

[bako]

Root in the bass, voice lead the triads above:

C E G B
F E A C
B F A D
E G B D
A G C E
D A C F
G B D F
C B E G

C B E G
F C E A
B D F A
E D G B
A E G C
D F A C
G F B D
C G B E

C G B E
F A C E
B A D F
E B D G
A C E G
D C F A
G D F B
C E G B

[jster]

Thanks bako. That's fascinating the way the second voice only goes 2/3 of the way around and so it takes three cycles to get back to where you start. But I don't think I wanna go there! Next week maybe. Hehe. Every time I add a layer of complexity, you know how it goes: 2^n type thing. Suppose you wanted to voice lead but get back to where you started. Is there a simplest pattern subject to that rule?

[2bornot2bop]

This is a very common piano way, bottom two notes in the left hand, top two in right hand

(notes listed are from low to high)

Dm7 1 7 3 5 - D C F A

G9 1 3 7 9 - G B F A

Cmaj7 1 7 3 5 - C B E G

Well, this piano player says Franks on the right track.

The only thing he omitted in his grouping above were:

closed voicings vs. open voicings

jazz pianists rarely if ever play R - 3 - 5 - 7 for the obvious reason, closed position beginner chords (no extensions) don't sound hip. But take those same chord tones and play them this way:

R - 10(3rd) - 7 - 5. So now you've got the same major 7th chord inverted using the interval of a 10th between the R - 3, and an interval of a 5th between 3 - 7, and an interval of a raised 5th between 7 - 5.

Voicings are too numerous to mention, but this is a first basic break from using closed (teriary) voicings. Even without voicing a 9th a chord can be made to sound very hip depending on the intervals used to voice your basic R-3-5-7.

And voicing Root based chords, i.e., in solo piano, R - 5 - 7 - 3 is used as a choice interval spaciing. The ear hears a R - 5 (5th interval) followed by a major 3rd (5 - 7), followed by a perfect 4th (7 - 3)....again, same notes, but with different aural results depending upon their intervallic relationship-spacing.

For minor b7 chords stacked 5ths work nicely, aka Kenny Barron voicings.

R - 5 - 9 minor3rd connected 1/2 step above the 9th (left and right thumbs connected) - b7 - 11, i.e. CGDEbBbF

Ask away if this isn't what you were after.

[2bornot2bop]

A typical ii-V-I progression would look like:

Left hand: R-7 Right hand: 3-5

or

Left hand: R-10 Right hand: 7-5

or a simpler example playing 3 note voicings, for the 5th isn't necessary to determine chord quality. Play the root in your left hand and the 3rd or 7th in your right hand, then continue same all around the cycle in this fashion, CFBbEbAbDbF#/GbBEADGC. This will provide you with proper voice leading:

D-7 G7 CMaj
7 3 7
3 7 3
R R R