memorizing or understanding

[jazzyguitar]

well im with the jody fisher method volume 1, for beginners
im learning first and 2 inversions triads of major dim, aug and minor chords

there are too many chords, dependings on the strings, so my question is
do i have to memorize them?

i know the chords formulas so i can construcct them and know the inversion theory, but it tooks too long that i apply the formula on the fretboard

when you play chords you are aware of each note you are playing and their positions??? or you just memorized them??
i guess a professional should be aware of what he is playing instead of memorizing, but recognize the notes in 2,34 and 5 string is hard to me
any tip?¿

[brwnhornet59]

Once you start seeing triads as small chunks of bigger structures, ie..xxx232, is part of this structure, 554232, it becomes much easier recognizing shapes and helps put the smaller pieces into context. As you learn triads on different string sets this becomes apparent quite quickly. You can find other shapes inside the structure just given, which all are inversions of the triad. xx423x...x543xx..554xxx all relate to the superstructure. You can carry this over to the other four shapes and view them the same way. The caged system is built around these basic shapes.

While shapes are important, knowing the names of each note (after all there are only three notes repeating, is not so hard to do) is very important if you want to be able to use these ideas and not be locked into memorized patterns. This liberates you, letting you see all of the myriad forms of these simple 3 notes everywhere. Knowing interval relationships is extremely important as well IMHO...When playing complex ideas in real time, it is next to impossible to to name notes, at least for me. So I rely heavily on my knowledge of intervallic relationships once I learned the changes.

There are no short cuts with learning the neck and really knowing it. Once you put the time in it will be time well spent...I hope this helps...Good luck!

[jazzyguitar]

Once you start seeing triads as small chunks of bigger structures, ie..xxx232, is part of this structure, 554232, it becomes much easier recognizing shapes and helps put the smaller pieces into context. As you learn triads on different string sets this becomes apparent quite quickly. You can find other shapes inside the structure just given, which all are inversions of the triad. xx423x...x543xx..554xxx all relate to the superstructure. You can carry this over to the other four shapes and view them the same way. The caged system is built around these basic shapes.

While shapes are important, knowing the names of each note (after all there are only three notes repeating, is not so hard to do) is very important if you want to be able to use these ideas and not be locked into memorized patterns. This liberates you, letting you see all of the myriad forms of these simple 3 notes everywhere. Knowing interval relationships is extremely important as well IMHO...When playing complex ideas in real time, it is next to impossible to to name notes, at least for me. So I rely heavily on my knowledge of intervallic relationships once I learned the changes.

There are no short cuts with learning the neck and really knowing it. Once you put the time in it will be time well spent...I hope this helps...Good luck!

according to what you say, its better to understanding isntead of memorizing
so my target know is to know all the fret board and mastering ti, to be aware of what im playing in an harmonic and melodic context, rythm guitar and soloist.
but seems a hard task??? any advice???

[Dad3353]

...but seems a hard task??? any advice???

The first 40 years are the most difficult, after which things get (slightly...) easier.

What's the rush..?

[brwnhornet59]

according to what you say, its better to understanding isntead of memorizing
so my target know is to know all the fret board and mastering ti, to be aware of what im playing in an harmonic and melodic context, rythm guitar and soloist.
but seems a hard task??? any advice???

Yes, that is the ultimate goal. Do it in small chunks. Keep using your memorized patterns, but try and put them into context with the knowledge that you are obtaining. If you look at it as one giant task you will just become overwhelmed. This is a life long journey and a work in progress. Better to understand and use a little well, than to kind of know a lot but can't use any...IMO

[whatswisdom]

im learning first and 2 inversions triads of major dim, aug and minor chords...there are too many chords, dependings on the strings, so my question is do i have to memorize them?

Not sure what you mean by "too many chords, dependings on the strings"

Memorize? Yes.

Try this:

X-X-X-C-E-G-----X-X-X-C-F-A-----X-X-X-B-D-G

Triads on strings 123. Chord progression = I IV V. It's movable through many keys. Reading left-to-right, chords are in Root pos. > 2nd inv. > 1st inv. The progression fits neatly within 2 adjacent positions. You hardly have to move to execute the progression cleanly. Give it a shot. Example I gave is in C. Play through it repeatedly till fluent. Then start moving it to other keys. Name each chord as you play.

[Reg]

I'm from the school of...understand the concept and when you get your technique together, applications are simply a matter of time. When you simply memorize... shapes, intervals how ever you want to visualize... you will hit walls. You won't be able to get past what you've memorized. The act of memorizing... or the application becomes the concept... Instead of being able to play different applications of a concept or concepts. There are usually many going on in jazz all the time.

I've always understood that I would eventually be able to play any application, once I understood the concept. The physical part is just getting your technique together. You can even usually get the physical part together with so-so technique, just requires a little more time.

But there are many ways to skin a cat. Reg

[jazzyguitar]

i am talking about, if somebody gives u a chord , u play it no becasue of you memorized it just because you know what note to play in each string
and this should be automatically, you have the formula in your head, you identify the notes for the chord in any key, and then you find very fast the notes on the board and play the chord..

or when you are soloing you have the notes in your head while you are playing
any tip to reach this skill?

[whatswisdom]

i am talking about, if somebody gives u a chord , u play it no becasue of you memorized it just because you know what note to play in each string
and this should be automatically, you have the formula in your head, you identify the notes for the chord in any key, and then you find very fast the notes on the board and play the chord..

See #6 above. Have you tried this? Simplicity. This breaks it down to a managable amount of info to learn. Get that down, then build by gradually expanding to more chords, e.g, 4-note collections. Triads first, IMHO...

[jazzyguitar]

See #6 above. Have you tried this? Simplicity. This breaks it down to a managable amount of info to learn. Get that down, then build by gradually expanding to more chords, e.g, 4-note collections. Triads first, IMHO...

yes but your method implies memorizing, im talking about being aware of fret board any time any where, so you dont need to see diagrams or memorizing patterns

[whatswisdom]

when you play chords you are aware of each note you are playing and their positions??? or you just memorized them??

I don't see how you can separate the two. If you are aware of each note as you play it (essential) and the position it's in on the fretboard, that means you've remembered it. My #6 post goes further in that it shows where a simple I IV V is located on the first 3 strings. I prefer to think of it as 3 major chords. So what's the point? Well you have a major chord in root pos, 1st inv, 2nd inv. There is a lot of information contained in that most basic of chord progressions. Try playing a simple chord melody (the simpler the better) using those 3 voicings. You might be surprised how much it will help, especially if you say the name of each chord as you play it. Your goal of knowing where everything is, instantly, takes time. This is a good way to start the process.

[cosmic gumbo]

I'm missing something, because memory has everything to do with retaining information, from remembering what notes are in a chord, to what fingerings are available to choose from, to where on the neck do I apply them? These choices all come from the memory.

[2bornot2bop]

See #6 above. Have you tried this? Simplicity. This breaks it down to a managable amount of info to learn. Get that down, then build by gradually expanding to more chords, e.g, 4-note collections. Triads first, IMHO...

Here's what I don't get. Why bother with triads if you already know how to build a Maj7,Dom7, and all of the above with chord extensions?

I don't understand the purpose of memorizing a triad 3 note chord, which I'll rarely use unless it's in 2nd inversion, i.e., the interval of a 4th and maj3rd, where it sounds like jazz, and not like some beginner play by numbers chord.

Having come from piano, and fairly new to guitar my biggest obstacle is having to begin with triads when I want to go to the BEEF. Give me an A13, not an A7. Give me an A-9 or A-11 not an A- triad. What's the point of learning where a R35 triad is on the neck when you already know how to build an A13 chord? Where does a triad get one playing jazz guitar?

Any suggestions?

[mr. beaumont]

If you want to cut to the chase, start with 4 note chords, and get major scale harmony licked so you can find the more interesting tones to add to your chords...

Triads can be very beneficial later on, actually, as an improv device...

[2bornot2bop]

If you want to cut to the chase, start with 4 note chords, and get major scale harmony licked so you can find the more interesting tones to add to your chords...

Triads can be very beneficial later on, actually, as an improv device...

I meant to add it seems more logical to learn 4 note voicings rather than triads.

Well there are a lot of "improv devices", i.e., chromatic, harmonic, etc.

Could you be a bit more specific where knowing triad positions on the upper strings are beneficial?

Much appreciated.

[whatswisdom]

Here's what I don't get. Why bother with triads if you already know how to build a Maj7,Dom7, and all of the above with chord extensions?

Looks like it's not applicable to you, then. I don't have to bother with triads either. I can spell fully extended chords in all keys and find them anywhere on the guitar. I guess I'm old fashioned because I learned all this by repetition until I had it memorized. OP seems to have something against the act of memorizing and my suggestion was a humble attempt to help change things (for jazzyguitar). I'd rather begin by memorizing a triad before going on to a fully extended chord.

[brwnhornet59]

Triads can be very beneficial later on, actually, as an improv device...

Agreed..

Well there are a lot of "improv devices", i.e., chromatic, harmonic, etc.

Could you be a bit more specific where knowing triad positions on the upper strings are beneficial?

Much appreciated.

Triads are part of the rage (triad pairing) that all of the big boys are doing. Evans, Metheny, Hall have used them for years...If you look at super imposing upper voicing triads to create colors, then add in a chromatic, they become four note entities unto themselves...Far from mundane or useless...Think of the Masters that use 3rd 7th with the added diatonic or chromatic voice leading notes...


But before we start invoking poly-tonal voicings and triad pairing, one must know the forms cold in the first place..But of course one must know 4 note voicings and many other applications and techniques as well...An never ending task of defining and redefining what we know...So knowing them everywhere takes on new dynamics....



There are many ways to view a triad and define its meaning and application...Just because you do not use them or find them to simplistic, do not count them out. They just might be what you were looking for all along. You never know, IMHO...

[smokinguit]

You can learn how to play triads all over the neck in a matter of 8 weeks or so. The key is not to rush. In week one and two focus on string set x-x-x-3-2-1. Here you will play each inversion up and down the neck chromatically, in major 2nd, minor 3rd, and cycle of fifth. As you play them name the root note out loud. Learn major, minor, dim, and aug in that order. Make sure to learn only ONE inversion each day. Once you are comfortable fingering and naming each inversion play them in a I IV V progression as mentioned above and again make sure to name them. Believe me, after you do this you wil MEMORIZE how to play triads on that string set 3-2-1. Now move on to other string sets in the same way. It's not hard. It just takes a lot of work, but you will be rewarded in the end.

[smokinguit]

Another good thing to do is print out a bunch of blank fretboard grid paper and circle each shape right before you play them. This helps to quickly imprint the shapes in your mind.

[pingu]

First I think all players have some grips for basic chords they can go to automatically ie without thinking at all

after that there seems to be two main frames of mind

1 You learn all the notes by letter on the board
and you learn how chords are made and you can find your alterations
and extensions like that

2 you learn the shapes of the intervals all all the string sets
and make your chords and melodies like that

Ideally of course you have both 1 & 2 going on simultainiously

I'm a 2 but working on 1

[2bornot2bop]

First I think all players have some grips for basic chords they can go to automatically ie without thinking at all

after that there seems to be two main frames of mind

1 You learn all the notes by letter on the board
and you learn how chords are made and you can find your alterations
and extensions like that

2 you learn the shapes of the intervals all all the string sets
and make your chords and melodies like that

Ideally of course you have both 1 & 2 going on simultainiously

I'm a 2 but working on 1

Okay, so my theory of playing from known grips wasn't totally off base, however limiting.

It's that place within me that studied triads on piano before realizing, "hey they're not playing this on the recording, I want the good stuff", so I of course abandoned triads completely unless using them as polychordal extensions of color.

Guitars a whole different thing, and I appreciate the input from those suggesting there's a valid case to study triads for jazz guitar. But without knowing 'why' that inner child is kickin' and screamin' he wants more pie after having a taste of the good stuff.

Thanks to all for their input.

[matt.guitarteacher]

If you want to cut to the chase, start with 4 note chords, and get major scale harmony licked so you can find the more interesting tones to add to your chords...

Triads can be very beneficial later on, actually, as an improv device...

This is my biggest beef with this book as a "beginner method". It's very poorly sequenced. I don't see that you should learn triads before learning any 4-note chords. The sequencing for introducing 4-note chords is just as bad. This book is a great reference, but it's basically what I'd give a jazz beginner if I wanted them to quit.

I've never read of one person on these boards who was a beginner, started with this book as their primary instruction source, then worked through it in sequence, and was happy with it. And I've done my best to provoke a real discussion on it. Mickey Baker vs Jody Fisher?

The idea that this book is a great beginner method is an urban legend among jazz guitarists because no one that I've ever seen on these boards learned to play jazz guitar with this as their primary source of instruction. When you start talking Leavitt or Mickey Baker, tons of people chime in saying they started with those books and would recommend them. Where are the Fisher beginner method success stories?

[mr. beaumont]

In all fairness, no one I've ever seen has learned jazz from a book


I think of everything as supplemental to listening and learning tunes...If you sat down with a basic understanding of major scale harmony, fleshed out the chords for say, five standards, learned the chords for those tunes in at least three areas on the neck, learned arpeggios for those chords, listened to 5 versions each of those tunes and transcribed one player's melody and one player's solo, you'd know more about jazz than any beginner jazz book teaches...

Sorry, I'm grumpy today...

[brwnhornet59]

In all fairness, no one I've ever seen has learned jazz from a book


I think of everything as supplemental to listening and learning tunes...If you sat down with a basic understanding of major scale harmony, fleshed out the chords for say, five standards, learned the chords for those tunes in at least three areas on the neck, learned arpeggios for those chords, listened to 5 versions each of those tunes and transcribed one player's melody and one player's solo, you'd know more about jazz than any beginner jazz book teaches...

Sorry, I'm grumpy today...

+1

[matt.guitarteacher]

In all fairness, no one I've ever seen has learned jazz from a book


I think of everything as supplemental to listening and learning tunes...If you sat down with a basic understanding of major scale harmony, fleshed out the chords for say, five standards, learned the chords for those tunes in at least three areas on the neck, learned arpeggios for those chords, listened to 5 versions each of those tunes and transcribed one player's melody and one player's solo, you'd know more about jazz than any beginner jazz book teaches...

Sorry, I'm grumpy today...

Agreed...

....but the original post was about the book. Besides, people always ask about which beginner method to go with, and this is often mentioned. I'm just trying to figure out why. I've never read any personal testimonials from people who used it as a beginner. It's just people saying it's a good book.

As to getting bogged down in every conceivable iteration of triads on all string sets, I think the book is the problem not the OP's handling of it. Like you said, there are better places to start (like 4-note voicings), and other beginner methods use those options.