How do you see the first few bars of Autumn Leaves ?

[Liarspoker]

The first 4 bars are: A- / D7 / Gmaj7 / Cmaj7

is A- / D7 - Gmaj7 a ii / V7 / I7

or do you see A- / D7 / Gmaj7 / Cmaj7 as VI / ii / V7/ I7 ?

and how do you view the next 4 bars ?

Fsharpm7flat5 / B7 / Em / Em

ii / V ( in E ) / ii / ii ( in D ) ?

Thanks

[Tom Karol]

It's a pretty simple song. It's in E minor, whose relative major is G.
So:
ii V I IV in G,
followed by
ii V i in E minor.
That's the way I look at/hear it anyway.

[FatJeff]

For a long time, I heard it in alternating major/minor keys, like Tom said. But recently it dawned on me (yes, I am that slow) that it can also be thought of as being all in a minor key:

ivm7-bVII7 IIImaj7-VImaj7 iim7b5-V7 im7

It's just a cycle of fourths through a harmonized minor key.

[mike g]

Jeff, just curious, why would you want to make it that complicated?

[Flyin' Brian]

Gotta go with Tom's explanation.

[FatJeff]

Jeff, just curious, why would you want to make it that complicated?

Well why not? I make everything else in my life more complicated than I need it to be. :-)

[JakeAcci]

It's a pretty simple song. It's in E minor, whose relative major is G.
So:
ii V I IV in G,
followed by
ii V i in E minor.
That's the way I look at/hear it anyway.

Well put!

Jeff, just curious, why would you want to make it that complicated?

Though I prefer Tom's explanation, Jeff's not wrong and although it's more complicated, it's not over-complicating at all. I think it's important to see the small cadences as well as the big picture. It's in E minor and just cycles through chords in that key.

Personally, I don't get too pedantic about distinctions between things like v7 I7 IVma7 and just calling it [ii7 V7 Imaj7]/IV. Understanding both is very useful.

[brwnhornet59]

The first 4 bars are: A- / D7 / Gmaj7 / Cmaj7

is A- / D7 - Gmaj7 a ii / V7 / I7

or do you see A- / D7 / Gmaj7 / Cmaj7 as VI / ii / V7/ I7 ?

and how do you view the next 4 bars ?

Fsharpm7flat5 / B7 / Em / Em

ii / V ( in E ) / ii / ii ( in D ) ?

Thanks

Yeah..Great viewpoints all..The easiest answer is usually the best (God knows I am like Jeff, I love to over complicate things). Looking at it in G gives you one secondary dom (B7), and everything else in G up to that point... ii V/ I IV/ vii III7/ vi...(or minor iib5 V i in EHM)

[Prome]

I think it's important to embrace the ambiguity inherent in Autumn Leaves. Part of what makes that tune great is that we never stay in either key long enough, with enough reinforcement cadences, to establish either as the actual key. You can really hear it both ways. For improvising I think of it as alternating ii-V7s in a major and its relative minor or vice versa ala Tom, but for analysis/memorization it's easiest to think of it in the major key:

iim7 V7 I IVmaj7 viim7b5 V7b9/vi vi, etc.

rather than:

iim7/bIII V7/bIII bIII bVImaj7 iim7b5 V7b9 i, etc.

[Prome]

One last analytical nugget -- this progression has been around for (as I'm sure most of you know) hundreds of years, used extensively in Baroque music. The classical musicians of that era likely saw it as a descending 2nds progression with related IV chords:

ii I vii vi

becomes

ii (V) I (IV) vii (iii) vi

which then becomes

iim7 V7 I IVmaj7 viim7b5 V7b9/vi vi

Pachelbel's Canon is basically the same conceit, but is a descending 3rds progression with related V chords:

I vi IV ii

becomes

I (V) vi (iii) IV (I) ii

which can then become

I V7 vi V7/vi IV I IV V, or whatever

or

I V6/3 vi iii6/3 IV I6/3 ii, blah blah

I caught this driving in my car once, figuratively spitting my coffee and shouting, "wft!" -- "Autumn Leaves" hidden in

!

[lawson-stone]

Any of you guys ever discover you can play the old theme song to the TV show "Mash" to the Autumn Leaves changes? It's not a perfect match at the end of the main statements, but at heart it's worth giving it a try. In the middle of a jam session it's fun to throw that tune in when playing AL.

[Flyin' Brian]

Or you can play Autumn Leaves over this:

[AmundLauritzen]

Jeffs way of looking at it is just as valid IMO and can open up for some interesting lines if you hear the final resolution way ahead, instead of just concentrating on the current chords. It's good to look ahead maybe even hear the end of the line as you go along.

To me, I see the same scale patterns for G major and E minor and just let my ear guide me to the gravity of each chord. Of course, when I want to add other scales like symmetrical diminished, altered, pentatonic, wholetone etc, I have to think of the current chord.

Thinking of the "big picture" - the progression and where it's going helps you create lines that make sense from beginning to end, and not just at the current chord.

[MarkRhodes]

For a long time, I heard it in alternating major/minor keys, like Tom said. But recently it dawned on me (yes, I am that slow) that it can also be thought of as being all in a minor key:

ivm7-bVII7 IIImaj7-VImaj7 iim7b5-V7 im7

It's just a cycle of fourths through a harmonized minor key.

Jeff, that's how I hear it too! Working with Elliott's "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing" helped me see (-hear) it that way. It was a ta-da moment for me.

[M-ster]

Jeffs way of looking at it is just as valid IMO and can open up for some interesting lines if you hear the final resolution way ahead, instead of just concentrating on the current chords ...

I was thinking, too, if you're a CST guy, you're going to prefer Jeff's analysis, 'cause you can wank in E (Aeolian) for 8 bars - what's simpler than that?

If you're a chord-tones guy, you don't particularly care about either analysis, 'cause you primarily are thinking chord-tones, regardless.

[docbop]

Gotta go with Tom's explanation.

I agree too. Simple tune usually a first jazz improv tune because two key centers with same notes. So you really have to "make the changes" to not sound like you're rambling all over. So good lesson in chord tones, guide tones and targeting notes. Also melody has some long notes so student can add some chords to playing the head.

[MarkRhodes]

I agree too. Simple tune usually a first jazz improv tune because two key centers with same notes. So you really have to "make the changes" to not sound like you're rambling all over. So good lesson in chord tones, guide tones and targeting notes. Also melody has some long notes so student can add some chords to playing the head.

I can't speak for Jeff---he's capable of doing that quite well for himself--but there's nothing about seeing the whole tune as a harmonized minor scale that requires one to ignore / minimize the changes. I find that it makes them easier to navigate because I have them all available in a single position (-and then in another position, and then in another...)

[docbop]

I can't speak for Jeff---he's capable of doing that quite well for himself--but there's nothing about seeing the whole tune as a harmonized minor scale that requires one to ignore / minimize the changes. I find that it makes them easier to navigate because I have them all available in a single position (-and then in another position, and then in another...)

Bottom line no matter what scale, scales, modes, patterns, etc you still have to make the changes in your solo. You could think chromatic scale as long as you articulate the right notes at right time.

[fep]

The best way to figure out the key is to use your ear.

Play the chords sing the melody, hear where it resolves.

I sure don't hear a tonal center resolution at the G chord, my ear says the whole thing is in Em.

Phrasing and structure are affecting the way one hears key centers.

[pingu]

Wow George plays great on that above track
Great solo

[MarkRhodes]

Bottom line no matter what scale, scales, modes, patterns, etc you still have to make the changes in your solo. You could think chromatic scale as long as you articulate the right notes at right time.

Well, I don't see how thinking chromatic scale would help. Realizing that the chords come from harmonizing the minor scale makes it real easy to remember them, and how the lead to one another. One doesn't have to think about it that way, of course, but it's the simplest, accurate explanation I've heard.

[docbop]

Well, I don't see how thinking chromatic scale would help. Realizing that the chords come from harmonizing the minor scale makes it real easy to remember them, and how the lead to one another. One doesn't have to think about it that way, of course, but it's the simplest, accurate explanation I've heard.

My point is what's importance its picking the right notes to make the changes. Those notes are in many scales so which one isn't that important, making the changes is.

[AmundLauritzen]

My point is what's importance its picking the right notes to make the changes. Those notes are in many scales so which one isn't that important, making the changes is.

Exactly. When practicing, it's good to limit oneself to one way of thinking about it at the time(and then trying other ways eventually). A good player has many approaches worked in, because they all inspire different lines.
In a performance situation it should be all reaction and no thinking. If there is thinking involved, then the player hasn't spent enough time with the tune in the shed IMO.

Sonny Rollins says it very well:

[brwnhornet59]

Exactly. When practicing, it's good to limit oneself to one way of thinking about it at the time(and then trying other ways eventually). A good player has many approaches worked in, because they all inspire different lines.
In a performance situation it should be all reaction and no thinking. If there is thinking involved, then the player hasn't spent enough time with the tune in the shed IMO.

Sonny Rollins says it very well:

+1

[MarkRhodes]

My point is what's importance its picking the right notes to make the changes. Those notes are in many scales so which one isn't that important, making the changes is.

I think the main point---as I understood it--is being missed. Let me tell you how I came to see it this way. I'm working with Joe Elliott's "Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing." One of Elliott's first exercises requires the student to play all seven arpeggios of a harmonized major scale in one position,moving from one to the next. Then the seven arpeggios of a harmonized minor scale in one position. (This is a prelude to "connecting" the arpeggios of a "common situation" such as ii-V-I or iii-vi-ii-V in a seamless way.) It's a good way to learn the relationships among all the arpeggios in a key, including which arpeggios may substitute for others, and how to grab them all in one spot.. It was in doing this exercise that I suddenly *saw* that the chords of "Autumn Leaves" are a simple sequence of a harmonized minor scale.

This isn't the same thing AT ALL as suggesting that when playing over the changes one must or should think of them that way, or only that way.

The original question is how one *sees* the first bars of "Autumn Leaves". That's how I see them. I think it's a good way to see them. (I don't know of a simpler more accurate way to see them, though someday I might, and from then on I'll see them that way.)