Scales & positions plus relations

[Melodic Dreamer]

Oops... wrong forum... I meant to put this in the beginner section.

I'm still having a hard time getting the Melodic Minor under my fingers.

I was wondering if there is somewhere I can download the finger charts for scale positions? You know, first position, second position.. blah, blah. I was hoping to find the Major, Melodic and Harmonic scales so I could have a visual to compare or be compared too.

I understand how to make the MM, but I think I would benifit by having a visual. I was hoping to find one for all three, just so I could have the same format and look. I'm a litle OCD. lol

[fep]

See if one of these helps...

1) Use your major scale fingerings but flat the third.

or

2) Use your dorian scale fingerings but raise the seven.

[Melodic Dreamer]

See if one of these helps...

1) Use your major scale fingerings but flat the third.

or

2) Use your dorian scale fingerings but raise the seven.

Oh, Thanks for the reply, but I understand the concept.
I also do well with the Major and Harmonic Minor scales/modes, but I was hoping to just have a nice and neat printable version for a visual when practicing.
I didn't know if someone new where I could print them off.

[Nuff Said]

I'm still having a hard time getting the Melodic Minor under my fingers.

I understand how to make the MM, but I think I would benefit by having a visual. I was hoping to find one for all three, just so I could have the same format and look. I'm a litle OCD. lol

If you really know your Major scale modes, each Melodic Minor Mode is just a Major Mode altered by one note, read the list below:

Mode 1 = Ionian b3
Mode 2 = Dorian b2
Mode 3 = Phrygian b1
Mode 4 = Lydian b7
Mode 5 = Mixolydian b6
Mode 6 = Aeolian b5
Mode 7 = Locrian b4

I learn't this information from Matt Warnock's great article:
How to Use the Melodic Minor Scale

Here are the Melodic Minor Fretboard diagrams:
melodic minor scale: 5 patterns | Discover Guitar Online, Learn to Play Guitar

Enjoy
Nuff

[brwnhornet59]

Yeah, Matt's site will get you going with all of that and more...

[Melodic Dreamer]

Thanks for the links.

I understand that the Melodic Minor has a flatted 3rd, but like I said, I'm still having trouble getting it under my fingers. I was hoping to have something to help me visualize it.. I learn by seeing. It's just how my brain works. If nothing else, I was going to draw it out myself, but like I said, I was hoping for a nice neat prinable version is all.

It's no biggy, I just thought I would ask here first.
Thanks for the links again.

[JakeAcci]

Draw it out yourself...well worth it.

I really don't like the idea of using other people's scale/fretboard diagrams. IMO, the more work a player does to develop his own systems of understanding the neck the better. One of those "teach a man to fish..." situations...

[Nuff Said]

I understand that the Melodic Minor has a flatted 3rd

I don't know if you understood what I posted, but each MM mode is just a Major Scale Mode with one note altered. See below:

Mode 1 = Ionian b3
Mode 2 = Dorian b2
Mode 3 = Phrygian b1
Mode 4 = Lydian b7
Mode 5 = Mixolydian b6
Mode 6 = Aeolian b5
Mode 7 = Locrian b4

That's the easy way to learn each MM mode and its a very, very powerful idea.
Nuff

[Patrick2]

You seem to keep asking for a printed pattern of the fingering. What these guys all have offered you is a way to visualize the fret board and work for the fingering. You're looking to take the lazy way out. I apologize for the harshness . . . but, your request to learn the "pattern" off of a printed out version will just further impede your learning. Learn to visualize the fret board . . . not just copy what you see printed out on some PDF chart. Learn where the damn 3rd is and just lower it a half step!!

(This is about the point where my old jazz teacher would have kicked me in the ass and called me a few choice curse words in Italian)

[Melodic Dreamer]

I don't know if you understood what I posted, but each MM mode is just a Major Scale Mode with one note altered. See below:



That's the easy way to learn each MM mode and its a very, very powerful idea.
Nuff

Yea, I understood. I guess I do it the wrong way in general. I never think of each mode that way. When I think of D Dorian my mind automatically says C major and so on. So I understand that I just flatten the 2nd which would be Eb, but I guess I just thought the visual thing might speed the learning process up. I know that's not the correct way, but it it's how I learned the modes. I just relate it back to the Major scale.

Jazz is more of a hobby for me. I'm so not a Jazz guitarist. I try and learn when I can at my own pace. I do love listening to Jazz players though. I don't have a teacher or the time for one. I'm a full time student with full time work and a family with a house payment. I just learn how I think my mind might pick it up quicker for the amount of time I have to practice.


Thanks for the help though. The links are great.

[Melodic Dreamer]

You seem to keep asking for a printed pattern of the fingering. What these guys all have offered you is a way to visualize the fret board and work for the fingering. You're looking to take the lazy way out. I apologize for the harshness . . . but, your request to learn the "pattern" off of a printed out version will just further impede your learning. Learn to visualize the fret board . . . not just copy what you see printed out on some PDF chart. Learn where the damn 3rd is and just lower it a half step!!

(This is about the point where my old jazz teacher would have kicked me in the ass and called me a few choice curse words in Italian)

You are probably right to a point. I was hoping to see and then have it ingrained in my mind through repetition.
Thanks for the advice, It wasn't harsh at all. I only get to practice a couple of times a week for 20 minutes or so each. It's hard retaining stuff when there is that much of a gap in practice time. I read forums when I can at work when work is slow.

[brwnhornet59]

I try and learn when I can at my own pace. I do love listening to Jazz players though. I just learn how I think my mind might pick it up quicker for the amount of time I have to practice.


Thanks for the help though. The links are great.

Hey man, don't be to hard on yourself. No one is picking on you. We have all been there.

Try this as an exercise without your guitar, while on break at work or in a spare moment. You do not have to do it all at once. Take the notes from CMM and jot them down. Then write out the notes of each mode underneath it, leaving space to add more under each separate line. After writing the modes, build each chord out to it's 13th, just like you would in the major scale. Name them all. Then when you have some time with your instrument, go over these ideas slowly. This will help you internalize this stuff much quicker than you might expect. Think about ideas when not playing, all of the time. I go to sleep and wake up thinking about music.

Not only play through each one in a linear fashion through the key, also take each mode and chord and base them off of C. What you will be doing is going through 7 different keys of MM starting on different intervals of the parent MM key, all relating to a C root. Once you are comfortable with this switch the C root from the A string and move it to the E string position. Repeat the process. You will really get this stuff ingrained deeply with this method, at least it worked for me.

Also as you progress, play these different ideas over everything you can find a place for it. If you really digested the chords, you will start seeing places that never occurred to you before that you can solo over. In the end your ears will be your ultimate guide. As your ears become more accustomed to the sounds of MM your tastes will changes as your awareness expands.

Good luck. Hope this helps you.

[Patrick2]

You are probably right to a point. I was hoping to see and then have it ingrained in my mind through repetition.
Thanks for the advice, It wasn't harsh at all. I only get to practice a couple of times a week for 20 minutes or so each. It's hard retaining stuff when there is that much of a gap in practice time. I read forums when I can at work when work is slow.

Good, thanks for not getting offended. Regarding "retaining stuff" . . I try to follow this rule . . ."If I hear something, I'll forget it. If I see something, I'll remember it. But if I do it, I'll understand it."

Sometimes, retention is not about having enough time. Sometimes it's more about effective utilization of the time you have. If you must see it . . then, draw a guitar fret board and mark it out yourself. I guarantee you'll retain more of it that way than if you have someone post a chart that you can down load.

[cosmic gumbo]

Guitar Scales Lessons: Melodic Minor Scale Modes

[fumblefingers]

i think that diagrams are fine. they accelerate the learning process. and no worries mate - playing intervals, arpeggios, and one octave modes from the diatonic scale fingering patterns in question will help you master the different/altered notes very well.

i am not a fan of two-octave scale fingering patterns that extend the scale beyond the second octave - IF - doing so causes you to change the fingering from a sensible one to an awkward one. case in point - the first fingering from M. Warnock above. It has you go out of position to reach the seventh (leading tone) on the 2nd string, and that is only so that you can play up to the minor 3rd on the first string - and why? because you played the lowered 3rd on the 6th string. i think that's a bad idea. the leading tone is on the first string one fret away from the tonic - play it there.

rather, i think that:
you need solid fingerings for each one octave scale and mode.
then you need solid fingerings for each two-octave scale and mode.
last and least - ditto for three octaves

in each case you should use the optimal fingering that does not require shifting or stretching out of position - IF - the only reason to do so is to extend the given scale or mode.


there are certainly many others who don't see it that way of course. i admit that over the years I have backed away from Leavitt's approach to scale/arpeggio fingerings ito some extent, but not entirely. i did so as a result of experience with the fingerings, watching the world's greatest jazz guitar players closely, studying their personal methods, and by learning classical methods as well. and i am left with.... "awkward fingerings are part of guitar playing and there are some that you will need to practice/master, but in general - avoid them if they are not musically necessary or useful.

[Melodic Dreamer]

Hey man, don't be to hard on yourself. No one is picking on you. We have all been there.

Yes I know. I never thought anyone was.

Though I guess at times I can be a little hard on myself. It's because when I started playing back in highschool, I picked it up very quickly. The sad thing is, I was into rock and metal without any type of guidence. With each year my musical taste and vocabulary started changing. I've played in a few Progressive fusiony type of bands. Now I mostly play in church. I love Jazz, I just feel I'm so late to the game and Life has only given me a small amount of time for playing music. It's a little discouraging knowing if I had a teacher when I started I could have been so much better.

But thanks for the advice. It does seem like something that could help me though I'm away from the instrument.

I try to follow this rule . . ."If I hear something, I'll forget it. If I see something, I'll remember it. But if I do it, I'll understand it."

That does seem reasonable. I will try to apply this.
In a way I'm very math minded, so numbers stick with me. I think I like looking at the frets. Maybe I'm just weird. lol

i think that diagrams are fine. they accelerate the learning process. and no worries mate - playing intervals, arpeggios, and one octave modes from the diatonic scale fingering patterns in question will help you master the different/altered notes very well.

Yes, that is how I feel, atleast with the amount of knowledge that I have.


Thanks for all of the help and comments. I really enjoy reading this forum. I learn a lot just from browsing the different post here. There is so much info to take in. It's truly a great place to learn.

[brwnhornet59]

i am not a fan of two-octave scale fingering patterns that extend the scale beyond the second octave - IF - doing so causes you to change the fingering from a sensible one to an awkward one.

rather, i think that:
you need solid fingerings for each one octave scale and mode.
then you need solid fingerings for each two-octave scale and mode.
last and least - ditto for three octaves

in each case you should use the optimal fingering that does not require shifting or stretching out of position - IF - the only reason to do so is to extend the given scale or mode.

While I understand what you are getting at and why, I am a huge fan of being aware of as many fingerings as possible. By doing this we take the awkwardness out of the equation. No matter what approach we choose, having a solid grasp on it is a must. There are so many ways to finger phrases. Avoiding some of them just because we are not comfortable with certain areas, only hinders our overall access to the sounds we are looking for. I try to make make weakness an asset. God knows I have enough weaknesses.