Alt Chords

**yueni** · 09-07-2008, 06:10 AM

Please could someone explain these chords to me? Cheers.

**m78w** · 09-07-2008, 10:36 AM

Dominant Chords For Jazz Guitar

An altered chord is a dominant 7th chord with any or all of the following intervals:

b9, #9, b5, #5

It comes from the altered scale, the seventh mode of melodic minor. So for a G7alt chord we would play Ab melodic minor

G Ab Bb B Db Eb F

or

R b9 #9 3 b5 #5 7

MW

**yueni** · 09-07-2008, 11:19 AM

thanks, i get it now but how do you know which alteratons to do if it just says G7alt?

**abracadabra** · 09-07-2008, 11:57 AM

Whichever sound good!

Just watch out that an altered tone doesn't clash with the melody line though.

**m78w** · 09-07-2008, 12:11 PM

Exactly, if the melody note is one of the alterations make sure it's in your voicing, other than that it's up to your ears and the context of the tune.

MW

**John Curran** · 09-08-2008, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by yueni

thanks, i get it now but how do you know which alteratons to do if it just says G7alt?

Generally if the chart calls for G7alt any (or all) of them (that is altered tensions) should work.

john

**jack_gvr** · 09-10-2008, 12:29 PM

I had the working idea that "alt" meant primarily flatting or raising the fifth, and secondarily throwing in all the upper extensions and the kitchen sink. Do you guys include the dom-b9 with natural fifth in the "alt" category, then? (This seems a little milder to me than the ones w/ altered fifth, and it doesn't sound very crunchy preceding a minor tonic chord.) I would also have kept the dom-w/-#9th in a separate category, myself.

Care to elaborate? Thanks.

**mike walker** · 09-10-2008, 03:29 PM

alt means the 5ths and 9ths are flattened and sharpened. You can use any combination in a v chord depending on how you want to voice lead.
v to i for instance, b9 can move to 5th or 6th of the i chord, sharp9 to the 7th or 6th of the i chord, b5 to root or 9 of i chord and sharp 5 moves to 9 or 3rd of i chord. Try each one.

Mike

**jack_gvr** · 09-11-2008, 11:42 AM

Thanks Mike, that's a nice explanation. "voice leading" - refreshing concept!

**mike walker** · 09-11-2008, 11:47 AM

It's a pleasure Jack.

Mike

**Kevjp** · 02-11-2009, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

alt means the 5ths and 9ths are flattened and sharpened. You can use any combination in a v chord depending on how you want to voice lead.
v to i for instance, b9 can move to 5th or 6th of the i chord, sharp9 to the 7th or 6th of the i chord, b5 to root or 9 of i chord and sharp 5 moves to 9 or 3rd of i chord. Try each one.

Mike

Hi,
Sorry to open up an old topic, but I need to fill some gaps in my harmony knowledge.

I'd like to clarify whether an alt chord requires BOTH an alteration of the 5 AND 9, or whether just one alteration qualifies as an alt. I get the feeling we need both, otherwise it would be marked as say C7(#5), or C7(b9). Is that what you meant by '5ths and 9ths'?

Also, I'd like to know what other tensions are available in an alt chord. Following the 'major 9th above a chord tone' rule, a 13 wouldn't be available with a b5 or #5. So with combinations or b5, #5, b9 and #9, do I just follow the major 9th rule with tensions #11, b13 and 13, or does the 'rule' not apply with alts?

Sorry to jump into the forum with a question!

Cheers,
Kevin.

**wizard3739** · 02-11-2009, 04:57 AM

"alt" means ANY combination of sharp or flat (5th and 9th) for a dominant 7th chord. Ie, for C7 alt, can be c7b5,c7#5, c7b9, c7#9, c7#5b9, c7b5b9, c7#5#9, etc... any combination.

wiz

**Joe Dalton** · 02-11-2009, 05:25 AM

To put it simply the notes come from the scale.
The altered scale of Db
Db D E F G A B
So if it has those intervals, it's an altered chord.

The 7(b9) chord is best to play the fifth mode of the harmonic minor or in fact the altered scale.

**Kevjp** · 02-11-2009, 06:58 AM

Thanks for the replies.
That sounds clear from the point of view of naming a chord I want to play, but how about in playing a chord written in a chart as C7alt?
If a chart calls for C7alt, the guitarist in a band may choose a natural 5th and flat 9th, whereas the pianist may opt for a sharp 5th. The results wouldn't be good.

**Joe Dalton** · 02-11-2009, 07:15 AM

If it says alt, you never play a natural 5. Doesn't fit in with the scale either see?
If it says alt you play only the notes you would find in the altered scale, often one of the altered notes might even be left out entirely, only playing 1 3 7 and a b#9. or 1 3 #b5 7
Never a natural 2 or 5 unless the chord reads b9 or 9#5 etc etc.

As far as comping with others, that is a different matter extensively covered in the lessons and comping part of the forum.

**Kevjp** · 02-11-2009, 07:39 AM

Right, so that's what I was saying in my first post - BOTH the nine and five need to be altered, rather than as wizard3739 said, that alt includes C7(b9).

**m78w** · 02-11-2009, 09:57 AM

Depending on the situation a C7b9 could be used if there was no 5th in the voicing. Same thing with C7b13, with no 5th.

MW

**derek** · 02-11-2009, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Joe Dalton

If it says alt, you never play a natural 5. Doesn't fit in with the scale either see?
If it says alt you play only the notes you would find in the altered scale, often one of the altered notes might even be left out entirely, only playing 1 3 7 and a b#9. or 1 3 #b5 7
Never a natural 2 or 5 unless the chord reads b9 or 9#5 etc etc.

Huh? Never heard that before. If I come across an alt, then my understanding is that I can alter it anyway I like. So C7alt can be C7b9 or C7#9, both of which have a natural 5th, unless you omit like Matt suggests.

**Joe Dalton** · 02-12-2009, 04:02 AM

Well, you can do whatever sounds good to you :P but it will in most ears anyway, clash heavily with the rest of the instruments.

**John Curran** · 02-12-2009, 07:54 PM

My understanding of the construction of altered scales is that they are comprised of the root, third, dom seventh, and all of the altered tensions (and none of the natural ones). These would include the b9,#9,b5 and b13. (The b5 being enharmonic to #11 and the b13 enharmonic to #5).

Eg: C7alt

C-Db-D#-E-Gb-Ab-Bb

The natural 9th, 5th, 11th and 13th would all be avoid tones, if you believe in avoid tones.

FWIW
john

**Kevjp** · 02-13-2009, 09:44 AM

Thanks John, that a nice précis that answers my query.

**P_Jay** · 02-13-2009, 11:57 AM

Read in the Lessons section under 'The Altered Scale' also if you like, Altered chord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**derek** · 02-13-2009, 12:12 PM

Thanks Joe and John. I just had not heard of that before, but it does make sense.

**bobsguitars09** · 12-16-2011, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by John Curran

My understanding of the construction of altered scales is that they are comprised of the root, third, dom seventh, and all of the altered tensions (and none of the natural ones). These would include the b9,#9,b5 and b13. (The b5 being enharmonic to #11 and the b13 enharmonic to #5).

Eg: C7alt

C-Db-D#-E-Gb-Ab-Bb

The natural 9th, 5th, 11th and 13th would all be avoid tones, if you believe in avoid tones.

FWIW
john

what if you are not basing your alt. chord off of the alt scale? if you play a G7#9 chord in the key of C. would it ever be called an G alt chord? or would you always call it a G7#9 chord? What is the proper context?

**Kevjp** · 12-16-2011, 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

what if you are not basing your alt. chord off of the alt scale? if you play a G7#9 chord in the key of C. would it ever be called an G alt chord? or would you always call it a G7#9 chord? What is the proper context?

I'd say no, a G7#9 isn't an alt chord because it contains a natural 5th. Remove the fifth and it could be considered alt. I don't see an alt chord as having to contain all the altered notes, but rather not containing the natural 5th or 9th. I'm sure someone will put me right if this isn't correct.