Toughest Guitar Chord To Play

**brwnhornet59** · 07-20-2011, 07:04 PM

What you need to do is build G Melodic minor into it's extended chords. Then you will understand what is what. Do this with every interval and scale in MM.

G MM

G A Bb C D E F#

Now go to the fourth interval, C, and build the Chord to the 13th degree and play the scale. Is the 5th flatted or the 4th, (11) sharp? Is the 5th G? Is the 7th flat or natural?

Now you tell me what it is. Let me know when you are done.

**Kman** · 07-20-2011, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

What you need to do is build G Melodic minor into it's extended chords. Then you will understand what is what. Do this with every interval and scale in MM.

G MM

G A Bb C D E F#

Now go to the fourth interval, C, and build the Chord to the 13th degree and play the scale. Is the 5th flatted or the 4th, (11) sharp? Is the 5th G? Is the 7th flat or natural?

Now you tell me what it is. Let me know when you are done.

Just do what Wes did and play that chord 1 3 b5 b7 9. Don't worry about scales. We are talking about chords here. Wes actually used the tri-tone sub more often, so he would approach this voicing as an F#/Gb chord most often.

**brwnhornet59** · 07-20-2011, 08:07 PM

I am trying to help these guys understand how the chord, regardless of interpretation, is derived. It is not by accident or a consequential alteration, that makes it what it is. Solo over it however you like, Wes is fine by me.

**whatswisdom** · 07-20-2011, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

I am trying to help these guys understand how the chord, regardless of interpretation, is derived.

Appreciated. Have to say that this whole thread has resulted in some great insight for me. New ways to navigate the MM scale. The jazz minor. Some hip chords to check out too ...

**brwnhornet59** · 07-20-2011, 11:01 PM

There ya go! That is what I wanted. You can take this information and interpret it in any way you see fit. But now you can say you know why it is what it is. What you do with it afterwards is entirely up to you. Have fun. Learn it right and make some great music.

Peace

**whatswisdom** · 07-21-2011, 09:06 AM

How about some slash chord examples? Some grids and spellings would be most helpful. Slash chords/upper structures is an area I need to study more. Context also...maybe even an example of its application from a jazz standard...

TH · 07-21-2011, 09:41 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

So...of these 2 answers that have been given: C7#11; C9#11,... which is the preferred spelling? (Assuming the root is lowest note.) I know the D is the 9th. It's just that I don't recall seeing C9#11 before. C7#11 is very familiar to me ...

I also named two chords for this fingering. D9 b13/C with the 7 in the bass. Resolve it to a G/B

Bb#11#5/C resolving to a G-7.

Each note in a chord can be seen as a root. That's my point. The spelling is not what is preferred when put in a vacuum. Chords exist in relation to what came before, what comes after, and the tonality of the piece at the time. It's like playing a single note and asking what key it's in.
Guitarists like to voice with the root in the bass. Ever play a triad over a bass note that makes it sound completely different? Did you try the chord combinations I outlined? Does it give you a new perspective? Why not include other options in your thinking and your vocabulary. It's pretty profound.
David

**whatswisdom** · 07-21-2011, 09:55 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

I also named two chords for this fingering. D9 b13/C with the 7 in the bass. Resolve it to a G/B. Bb#11#5/C resolving to a G-7.... Did you try the chord combinations I outlined? Does it give you a new perspective? Why not include other options in your thinking and your vocabulary. It's pretty profound.

Your response is helpful. I have not worked on your progression as of yet...will do tonight when I get to my guitar. I started the thread thinking of a chord as a single entity: How many times have you had everything come to a standstill because of a problematic chord? For me, many times. As I expected, some great responses have appeared that show how chords relate to each other...

**wolflen** · 07-21-2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Vihar

We also need a lightbulb to see how many jazz guitarists does it take to change it.

what...we need to change lightbulbs now....

**whatswisdom** · 07-21-2011, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by wolflen

what...we need to change lightbulbs now....

Didn't you learn that some chords are darker than others???

**brwnhornet59** · 07-21-2011, 11:09 AM

what...we need to change lightbulbs now....

Yes Wolfen, the Metheny method is preferred, but i see a trend towards the Rosenwinkle concept. Changing a light bulb can be very tedious. Hell if approached wrong, it might extinguish all known light in a jazz musicians brain. This would be bad.

I think it has already happened to a few. Imagine a world with Kenny G and Yanni as our only muse's. I shutter the thought. Call the jazz Police!

TH · 07-22-2011, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

How about some slash chord examples? Some grids and spellings would be most helpful. Slash chords/upper structures is an area I need to study more. Context also...maybe even an example of its application from a jazz standard...

Maybe this might be the stuff of another thread completely, but try these as a starter kit for slash chords. OK, remember that the slash chord uses the same root as a normal chord, it doesn't include the 3rd (or anything that can be heard as the 3rd) and it tends to avoid notes that diffuse the sound of the mode itself. All of these rules can be broken so please remember they're a starter.

First of all, get familiar with your triads and all their inversions, at least on the first 4 top strings (1,2,3 2,3,4) because I'm not going to spell out all the possibilities. Next, know where all of these roots are in relation to another note on the lower strings; if you need to draw a chart, do it now, it will save you time later.

These are common substitutes for normal root in bass chords so I'll identify them that way. I'll do these in C but learn them by sound and fingering for any root of couAnd if you don't/can't think modally, please spare the comments about "Charlie Christian never used these stinkin chords so they're just lame, fake, stupid intellectual chords that nobody I play with uses." Yeah, I get it. rse. (I find it helpful to think in terms of interval and degree for ex: C/Bb I think of as I/bVII or C/G- as I/V- )

[These are modally based voicings- simply one of many alternatives to drop 2 chord tone based voicings]

I (ionian functions) C/G
II- (dorian functions) D-/C G-/C Bb/C and optionally G-7/C BbM7/C
III- (phrygian functions) Db/C Bb/C Bb-7/C
IV (lydian functions) D/C G/C B-/C GM7/C B-7/C
V (mixolydian functions) D-/C G-/C Bb/C BbM7/C G-7/C
VI (aolean functions) G-/C Bb/C G-7/C
VII (locrean) Db/C Gb/C Bb-/C GbM7/C Bb-7/C

a couple of 7th chords that you can use:
7#11 (lydian dominant functions) D/C G-/C Bb+/C G-M7/C Bb+M7/C

7alt (altered dominant functions) Gb/C

Here's the toolbox. We can discuss voicing them with the root on soprano, alto or tenor voice at some time in the future.
Why don't you try taking a piece like All The Things You Are, try

Bb-/F | C/Bb | A/Eb | AbM7 | Ab/Db etc... and tell us what your impressions are. Mix it up!
Have fun
David

**whatswisdom** · 07-22-2011, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

[And if you don't/can't think modally, please spare the comments about "Charlie Christian never used these stinkin chords so they're just lame, fake, stupid intellectual chords that nobody I play with uses." Yeah, I get it. ]

??? - Not getting where you're going with that one. (Maybe an allusion to someone else?) I didn't think I was giving off that kind of vibe? Anyway, I do indeed know my modes and look forward to (over the weekend) road-testing the examples. Good suggestion to use them on ATTYA.

**barrymclark** · 07-22-2011, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

For the tough ones, the one thing that's helped me to no end is to play them super-slow as arps. Imagine your hand as a spider taking s-l-o-w Giant Steps (pun, sorry). Funny, some of the toughest chords then seem attainable...

Thanks! That worked like a charm!

I was doing this before but wasn't playing the notes as my fingers landed as though I was playing an arp'.

Doing this helped me set a time and I have been able to really speed up getting my fingers in position. This would have likely taken weeks for me to get down otherwise. Thanks again!

**whatswisdom** · 07-22-2011, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

Thanks! That worked like a charm! I was doing this before but wasn't playing the notes as my fingers landed as though I was playing an arp'. Doing this helped me set a time and I have been able to really speed up getting my fingers in position. This would have likely taken weeks for me to get down otherwise. Thanks again!

Super! Glad it was useful to you. Another way to build facility is to play them as hammer-ons. SUPER-S-L-O-W ... (Like a spider.) Keep your fretting hand as relaxed as possible. Reach from the fingers. Has really made a difference in my playing. Cheers..

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 07-22-2011, 04:14 PM

Relaxed is important, I agree!

If the chord is tough because it's a big stretch, you can also practice the grip higher up the neck then work your way down.

And do it the opposite way for chords where you have to jam your fingers together -- and try for a little more fingertip than pad (marginally speaking)

TH · 07-22-2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

??? - Not getting where you're going with that one. (Maybe an allusion to someone else?) I didn't think I was giving off that kind of vibe? Anyway, I do indeed know my modes and look forward to (over the weekend) road-testing the examples. Good suggestion to use them on ATTYA.

Sorry, not directed at you at all. I always anticipate the running commentary from the "I never use modes because I don't overthink my jazz" contingent.
They're also nice when you're pedaling over an extended tonality centre, like the bridge of Stella. You can tastefully use these, impart a nice sense of movement and still retain the flavour of the original changes.

David

**barrymclark** · 07-22-2011, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Super! Glad it was useful to you. Another way to build facility is to play them as hammer-ons. SUPER-S-L-O-W ... (Like a spider.) Keep your fretting hand as relaxed as possible. Reach from the fingers. Has really made a difference in my playing. Cheers..

Reach from the fingers? I don't follow.

**whatswisdom** · 07-22-2011, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

Reach from the fingers? I don't follow.

Maybe overstated. Point I meant is: "Don't tense up or try to stretch and over-extend, using unnecessary muscles." Some bad habits of mine from way back .... hope that makes some sense ... A violin teacher gave me the "reach from the fingers" idea.

**barrymclark** · 07-23-2011, 07:48 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Maybe overstated. Point I meant is: "Don't tense up or try to stretch and over-extend, using unnecessary muscles." Some bad habits of mine from way back .... hope that makes some sense ... A violin teacher gave me the "reach from the fingers" idea.

AH! I see what you mean, now. I am already a fan of economy of movement. So, I am good there.

I must have spent an hour just playing that chord between the root and 2nd inversion going back and forth last night. Within 3 days I was really humming through that chord. You have saved me WEEKS of my old way easily.

Just that little change to what I was already doing in playing the arp' in time as opposed to just doing the same without it being played really, really helped.

Thanks again. I will spread the word to those that don't know of it.

**Kojo27** · 07-23-2011, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by whatswisdom

Can someone give me a name for this one? It's an awesome chord but drives me crazy when I have to play it higher up the fingerboard. [CHORD]

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[/CHORD]This one *is* tough, but I find it much easier to grab cleanly if I do a full barre w/first finger, rather than barring just the top four strings. If strumming, be careful. If need be, just raise your fingertip enough to deaden the 6th string note.

**hot ford coupe** · 07-23-2011, 10:28 AM

The toughest chords for me are the ones that have long stretches. It really irritates the arthritis in my left hand. I tried to do some of the Johnny Smith close voicing and really messed up my hand for a day or two.

Another problem for me is that I use a lot of barre chording. If I have to go from one to another to another, the muscles in my left hand start to cramp and fatigue.

**JakeAcci** · 07-26-2011, 08:54 AM

here's structure a stumbled upon yesterday that I found barely possible in most cases:

from low voice to high, R 6 7 4 5, take each voice up a mode...so for the key of B major you start with:

E C# D# A# B

then

F# D# E B C# (recommend using the open B)

then

G# E F# C# D#

here's one of the tougher ones next:

A# F# G# D# E

etc, continuing up the mode, or any mode

on any string set some of these are not easy for me to grab.

I really like the sound though, especially of the first one starting on E.

**whatswisdom** · 07-26-2011, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by Kojo27

[/chord]This one *is* tough, but I find it much easier to grab cleanly if I do a full barre w/first finger, rather than barring just the top four strings. If strumming, be careful. If need be, just raise your fingertip enough to deaden the 6th string note.

Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a try tonight!

**whatswisdom** · 07-26-2011, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by barrymclark

AH! I see what you mean, now. I am already a fan of economy of movement. .... Within 3 days I was really humming through that chord. You have saved me WEEKS of my old way easily. Just that little change to what I was already doing in playing the arp' in time as opposed to just doing the same without it being played really, really helped.

Try this on an acoustic guitar. Scale: F major. Position: I. Keep fretting hand as relaxed as possible. Play the first note (F) with pick or finger. Continue up the scale but use fretting hand only. Obviously you have to hammer-on to sound each note. Go very slow. Listen carefully to each note. How much strength can you generate by using fretting fingers only? Hint: if you can hear each finger make a tapping sound on the wood of the fingerboard, you're on the right track--it means you are generating the right amount of velocity to get a clear note. (Using an acoustic guitar is best for this exercise.) Think of each finger as walking. This part is very important: When you fret the note, leave your finger down and don't lift until absolutely necessary. I've been practising this (and in Bb, Eb in same position) every day; and my ability to play more difficult chords has improved. Maybe it will work for you too.
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