Can I substitute a dominant 9th for a dominant 2nd chord

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 06:15 PM

I'm playing Gordon Goodwin Too close for comfort for a jazz band audition and was wondering if I could do this because I don't know how to finger a dominant 2nd and I can't find it online

**Spirit59** · 04-13-2011, 06:40 PM

Originally Posted by Thatoneguy

I'm playing Gordon Goodwin Too close for comfort for a jazz band audition and was wondering if I could do this because I don't know how to finger a dominant 2nd and I can't find it online

Are you sure it's "dominant 2nd"? Maybe you mean sus2?

**billkath** · 04-13-2011, 07:01 PM

Or--are they talking about a secondary dominant( which I think is probably more likely)?

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 07:18 PM

I just thought is was a dominant 2nd because it's F2

**docbop** · 04-13-2011, 07:22 PM

Could it be an Add 9 type chord?

**billkath** · 04-13-2011, 07:30 PM

Or it could be a misprint. Or it could mean F in 2nd inversion? Can you give the progression? The Realbook progression I have is |C///| Cm///| Gm///| A7///| Fm///| G7///| C///| Dm7/G7/| for the first 8 bars.

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 08:05 PM

F2 E7(#5) Am7(b5) Eb9 A7(#5) Eb7 D7

It's not the very beginning and it's not one from the real book

**ksjazzguitar** · 04-13-2011, 08:07 PM

What is the chord progression on the chart?

I doubt it would mean 2nd inversion (for which "2" is not the correct symbol in jazz pr classical.) There would be no need to label a secondary dominant - it would be clear from context.

If I were reading a chart and encountered "F2" I would guess then it was either an Fsus2 or an Fadd9. I would look at either the piano part or the score for clarification. Or just listen to what is going on there.

Peace,
Kevin

**VersatileJazzGuitarist** · 04-13-2011, 08:07 PM

"F2" is not a standard notation, at least not one I've ever seen, and I've seen thousands of charts. We can only guess what they meant. If you find out, we can tell you how to finger it or what to substitute for it.

There's no such thing as a dominant 2nd.

**billkath** · 04-13-2011, 08:09 PM

Ah-in that case I'd go F(add9) then--Sounds better to me than a straight F9. I'd imagine if he wanted an F9 he'd have written that-seeing as he notated an Eb9.

**VersatileJazzGuitarist** · 04-13-2011, 08:10 PM

Oh, I see where you showed the progression.
Looks like it's the first chord of the "A" section of this tune.
You say it's not the first chord of the tune. Is this because there's an intro? Gordon Goodwin is a big band guy. Are you doing a big band chart?

I'm trying to guess what was meant. If you're comping in a big band, you could get by playing an F Major chord (no seventh at all).

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 08:15 PM

Yeah it's a big band chart

Edit: Also yeah it has this pretty cool intro with a vocalist scatting the melody while the guitarist plays it

**VersatileJazzGuitarist** · 04-13-2011, 08:24 PM

I just listened to the track for "Too Close For Comfort" on the Phat Pack album (Gordon Goodwin's big band is called the Big Phat Band).

If you're playing rhythm guitar like the guitarist on this recording, you'll want to play an Fmajor. Whether you add 9 doesn't matter, because nobody's going to hear it. The Guitar is way in the background.

Of course I'm still guessing!!

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

I just listened to the track for "Too Close For Comfort" on the Phat Pack album (Gordon Goodwin's big band is called the Big Phat Band).

If you're playing rhythm guitar like the guitarist on this recording, you'll want to play an Fmajor. Whether you add 9 doesn't matter, because nobody's going to hear it. The Guitar is way in the background.

Of course I'm still guessing!!

I better play the add9 because my audition will be just me playing it

**VersatileJazzGuitarist** · 04-13-2011, 08:26 PM

We crossed posts.
So you are playing naked behind the singer -- I mean it's just guitar and vocal?

**Thatoneguy** · 04-13-2011, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by VersatileJazzGuitarist

We crossed posts.
So you are playing naked behind the singer -- I mean it's just guitar and vocal?

In the intro for the most part yes because the horn backgrounds aren't a lot of playing in that instance.
That's not when I am playing that chord though.
But my initial audition will be me playing alone and I'll probably play it with the band if I get in which is why I decided it was best to play the add9

**lkmuller** · 04-13-2011, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

If I were reading a chart and encountered "F2" I would guess then it was either an Fsus2 or an Fadd9. I would look at either the piano part or the score for clarification. Or just listen to what is going on there.

That's how I would interpret it too. Back in the 70's when I was working the Al Harrington Show (he was one of the stars of the original Hawaii Five-0) the MD used that chord symbol a lot. He wanted an Fadd9 but that's how he notated it.

**vac4873** · 04-14-2011, 12:48 AM

I agree with the other posters that say the chord is properly notated as an add9. I've played a lot of pop charts and this naming has come to be mostly in the last 10 or so years. I usually take it to imply that the chord has a 9 added, but only one whole step above the root, rather than in the next higher octave indicated by the "9" designation. ymmv.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-14-2011, 01:36 PM

You see that symbol a lot in charts made by non-jazzers. It avoids the headache of actually having to know the difference between a sus2 and add9 if you don't know theory.

**mr. beaumont** · 04-14-2011, 01:54 PM

The "2" chord is very L.A.

I know a guy who does a lot of session work out there and we've actually had a conversation about it, because I had never seen it here in Chicago until I played a "Church gig." Anyway, he told me "2" pops up quite a bit--rarely in a jazz context.

It's shorthand for a sus2, but it's essentially synonymous with an add9 as well--it's often used as a tonic chord or a IV, rarely a dominant...

**fep** · 04-14-2011, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The "2" chord is very L.A.

I know a guy who does a lot of session work out there and we've actually had a conversation about it, because I had never seen it here in Chicago until I played a "Church gig." Anyway, he told me "2" pops up quite a bit--rarely in a jazz context.

It's shorthand for a sus2, but it's essentially synonymous with an add9 as well--it's often used as a tonic chord or a IV, rarely a dominant...

Your post brought back memories of reading about the Mu Major in a Steely Dan song book. I always wondered if Steely Dan was being a bit tongue in cheek by calling the chord a Mu Major.

I googled Mu Major and low and behold I found this excellent site:

Steely Dan Chords

Edit: Regarding the 'Mu Major' name, I found this in Wikipedia

The reference to this chord as "mu major" has been popularized by fans of the jazz-influenced rock group Steely Dan, as well as by the band members themselves. This chord is used extensively in their work, often arpeggiated at the end of musical phrases. The "mu major sound" is a distinctive idiom of Steely Dan's style. In a 1989 interview with Paul Zollo,[3] Walter Becker explained that the use of the chord developed from trying to enrich the sound of a major chord without making it into a "jazz chord". They used it so often that it became a signature sound for the band. The reason they called it "mu major" is now forgotten, but the whole business of naming the chord was meant as a joke regarding the band's excessive use of the voicing.[3] While the name itself comes indeed from this band, the usage of the chord itself has been present for decades in jazz music from bop to free, and was especially present in the Jazz-funk era from the late '60s to the early '80s. Notable users are, amongst many others and for instance, vibes player/composer Roy Ayers, and pianist/composer Herbie Hancock. The chord/voicing technique was the same, just not named as such.

**Spirit59** · 04-14-2011, 03:21 PM

Ah fep - you beat me to the punch re the μ major chord! Yes, it certainly does bring back memories...

No to go OT, but another chord that SD used extensively was a triad a fifth above a bass note, e.g. G/C. These chords are so "floaty", and can be seemingly moved around at will without problems. You can use them in much the same way as the μ chord, as one of my old SD books said, "Like a Hindemuth gone haywire"!

**matt.guitarteacher** · 04-14-2011, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

The "2" chord is very L.A.

I know a guy who does a lot of session work out there and we've actually had a conversation about it, because I had never seen it here in Chicago until I played a "Church gig." Anyway, he told me "2" pops up quite a bit--rarely in a jazz context.

It's shorthand for a sus2, but it's essentially synonymous with an add9 as well--it's often used as a tonic chord or a IV, rarely a dominant...

It is a big church thing. I think among really casual musicians it means "put a 2 in there any way you can". If it's G2 it'll end up being Gadd9 just because of the way you voice the open chord. D2 will be Dsus2. It's easier to write G2. You also see a lot of enharmonic craziness. ( E/Ab chords.... drives me nuts.

I must confess that I use the G2 chord symbol sometimes with beginning guitar students. If it's in one of the first songs they want to learn, I may wait until later to have the "difference between sus2 and add9" conversation.