Major and Minor 2 5 1 Questions

[guitarnut]

I understand major 2 5 1 and know how to figure Major 2 5 1 in all keys..What I don't understand is how to use minor 2 5 1, although I can recognize minor 2 5 1 in a song , like Autumn Leaves, for instance..
What exactly is minor 2 5 1 and How do I learn to figure this out in all minor keys ?
Thanks ,
Paul

[GodinFan]

Usually a minor ii-V will consist of a m7(b5) chord leading to some type of altered dominant, often a 7(b9) chord. This may or may not lead to a target chord that's minor.

[mr. beaumont]

In a minor ii V I, you're borrowing from harmonic minor--the V chord is dominant. Minor is a much more complex entity than major...

You don't have to worry so much about that right away--when finding the chords, write out your minor scale. ii (second note, of course) is harmonized as a half diminished, V is dominant, as GF suggested, usually altered (#5, b5, #9, b9, any or all of those--use your ears)

[JazzFanatik]

Thanks this is helpful! I have wondered this myself...

[ksjazzguitar]

Really, a ii7-V7-I in major is just a way of expressing a major key. A iim7b5-V7-i is just the way of expressing a minor key. There is nothing magical about those particular chords, just that it has become a jazz cliche to use them to express the key (OK, it's a little more complex than that, but that's good enough for now.)

The roots (the alphabet names of the chords) will be the same for the respective chords in major and minor keys, you just need to change the "qualities," i.e. m7 changes to m7b5, etc. They have those qualities because of the notes that are available from the parent scales. Do a Google search on "harmonizing scales" and you'll get lots of explanations.

Peace,
Kevin

[mynewguitar]

As always, these discussions shed a light on subjects that have been murky to me, and the case of major / minor over a II V I has been a source of constant fascination. I could hear the notes but could never explain why they worked or what form they fit into.

I appreciate the opportunity to listen in on the discussion. So much to learn!

[M-ster]

Really, a ii7-V7-I in major is just a way of expressing a major key. A iim7b5-V7-i is just the way of expressing a minor key. ... The roots (the alphabet names of the chords) will be the same for the respective chords in major and minor keys, you just need to change the "qualities" ...

Exactly. Good explanation.

[VersatileJazzGuitarist]

Warning: don't take the above as unbendable rules.

Sometimes you will see "minor ii-V-i" end with a major chord, and vice-versa.

Example:
Dmi7 G7b9 Cmi7
Dmi7b5 G7b9 CMaj7

For instance, here are the first 3 chords of "I Love You" from Real Book I:
Gmi7b5 C7b9 FMaj7

[jaystrings]

I appreciate the question and the responses. Murky area for me. This is helping. Thanks.

Jay

[lindsayward]

Hi there. Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this is exactly what I was going to ask about - the ii V i minor part of Autumn Leaves, but I want to ask about the scales to use for improvising, and the im7 chord at the end.
Let's use the key of Em for the examples. Please correct me anywhere I'm wrong, thanks.

1. Over the ii V I at the start (Am7 D7 Gmaj7 and then Cmaj7), I can use the I major scale (G major) - no worries.
Over the next progression, ii V i (Em), does the harmonic minor scale work fine over ALL of these chords? Specifically...

2. In the charts I've seen this last chord is either Em, Em7 or Em6, but the 6 (C#) and the b7 (D) are not in the E harmonic minor scale (E F# G A B C D# E).
So... do we change to the natural minor or something for this chord, or should this not be a m7 or a m6... perhaps a mM7... or what?

3. I've been getting used to Bert Ligon's connecting chords with linear harmony idea of connecting the 7 of the chord before to the 3 of the next chord in major - e.g. in Am7 D7 Gmaj7 the 7-3 resolutions are G-F# and C-B.
Is there a corresponding "connection" for minor ii V i progressions? Just taking the 7-3 it would be (staying with Autumn Leaves in Em) F#m7b5 B7(b9) Em(7?): E-D# (good, semi-tone) then A-G (tone). This doesn't seem to "work" as well as the major progression where they're both semi-tones, so is there something more commonly done here?

EDIT: http://www.jazclass.aust.com/scales/sca251mi.htm suggests that where the m7 is used as the i chord, you could use the Dorian mode, since the chord does not fit with the harmonic minor scale. (Would the natural minor be more appropriate than Dorian, considering the b6 (C) used in the ii chord?)
I'm still keen to hear how others approach this common progression.
I'm also not sure how much of what I'm writing is actually correct, so please chime in.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks very much!

[Mike A]

i dont always use the same scale, i use phyrgian dominant or superlocrian over the B. A lot of time i'm not thinking about a "Scale" at all. I think scales are too much to think about in the short time you have on a chord. think more arpeggios and licks.

[lindsayward]

Thanks Mike. Anyone else have anything to add to these questions?

[lindsayward]

I thought I might get a bit more response to this question. Perhaps it's not in the most appropriate forum.
Also, I was wondering why my new profile picture doesn't show up...

[princeplanet]

Think arps and their subs and ways to "decorate" chromatically with enclosures and passing notes etc.

[RyanM]

3. I've been getting used to Bert Ligon's connecting chords with linear harmony idea of connecting the 7 of the chord before to the 3 of the next chord in major - e.g. in Am7 D7 Gmaj7 the 7-3 resolutions are G-F# and C-B.
Is there a corresponding "connection" for minor ii V i progressions? Just taking the 7-3 it would be (staying with Autumn Leaves in Em) F#m7b5 B7(b9) Em(7?): E-D# (good, semi-tone) then A-G (tone). This doesn't seem to "work" as well as the major progression where they're both semi-tones, so is there something more commonly done here?

Yes, the b9 of the V chord resolving to the 5th of the i chord serves as the half-step leading tone. The fifth of the V chord could also go up a half-step to the b3.

[RyanM]

The harmonic minor scale is where minor key harmony is derived... so technically yes you can play harmonic minor over the whole thing...

But actually the best way to understand minor keys is that the 6th and 7th degrees are variable, and all three forms of the minor scale (or 4 including dorian) are all just different inflections of the same scale.

The classical form of melodic minor isn't really a scale in sense scales are used in jazz.. it's really more of a voice-leading principle; the 7th leads up to the root, the b6 leads down to the 5th... and the augmented 2nd is avoided in the process, which is a very distinct sound, almost like a special effect.

Really the only purpose for harmonic minor is to provide a major third on the V chord (making it a dominant); that's really where you'd want to play that scale (i.e. phrygian dominant). The Altered scale is the preferred modern jazz alternative: flat the fifth, and swap the 4th for the #9 and you get all the altered tones and a scale without the augmented second. One thing the altered scale does is provide additional half-step resolutions to the tonic; the b5 can now also resolve down to the root.

The ii minor7(b5) is derived from natural minor so would fit the locrian mode. However the modern jazz alternative is the Locrian natural 9 scale (6th mode of melodic minor) because the natural 9th is more stable and can be used more freely. The harmonic minor scale of the tonic works over this chord as well... it would produce the Locrian natural 6th scale.

In classical music the tonic chord used to always be a triad... so as I mentioned the 6th and 7th scale degrees would vary depending on the melodic line. In jazz the i chord could be Minor7th, minor-Maj7, min6, (and sometimes a minor ii-V resolves to a major I chord) depending on the song. So all forms of the minor scale (natural/aeolian, melodic, dorian) will work depending on the situation.

Minor key harmony is more complex than major because it isn't all derived from the same scale. But really the best way to think of it is the other way around: harmony isn't derived from scales, scales are derived from harmony... it's the linear arrangement of the fully implied harmony. To really learn to hear and play the minor ii-V-i the best place to start is with the arpeggios, then try adding the different scale tone options to hear how the differerent options sound.

You should check out the threads on the book "Introduction to Jazz Soloing", it has a good approach to mastering these progressions.

[lindsayward]

Hi RyanM,
Thanks for your very detailed answer. I think I'll have to read over it a couple of times to more fully understand it, but I already see some helpful things in it, and knowing that minor harmony is more complicated than major (varied scales) is actually helpful. I think I was looking for something as simple as it is in major.
Perhaps this is common for people as they progress in understanding music theory, but everything seems so neat in major harmony, and I feel I really understand it... so when I look at minor harmony I want it to "fit" just as well, but it doesn't. Knowing I won't find something that fits as well as with major means I can stop looking for it and start embracing the options

Thanks heaps.

[carter.thaxton]

Hi Lindsay,

I usually consider the entire progression to use the natural minor scale, except for the V chord, which raises the third, producing a dominant chord that gives greater resolution back to the minor tonic. As in major harmony, the raised third of the V chord is the major seventh of the tonic, so as you've noticed, it's a strong leading tone back to i, even if the i is minor.

So, instead of describing Autumn Leaves as being major ii-V-I-IV in G, followed by minor ii-V-i in E.
I prefer to think of the first four chords as still belonging to the E natural minor scale, so the whole progression is iv-VII-III-VI-ii-V-i.

When you compare the progression in natural minor scale to its relative major scale, you get:
minor 4 7 3 6 2 5 1
major 2 5 1 4 7 3 6

So the Autumn Leaves progression can be described as:
(The second column is what the root chord would be considered in its relative major scale. Note the second dominant, near the end.)


iv (min) = ii
VII (dom) = V
III (maj) = I
VI (maj) = IV
iiø (dim) = viiø
V (dom!) = iii <---- NOTE
i (min) = vi

Looking at it this way, the b7 on the final i chord is a return to the natural minor scale, which the entire progression used up to that point. It's the D# as part of the V chord that is "out", not the C natural. The D natural was used all along. Comparing the natural minor scale to the relative major scale shows that the V would normally be a minor iii chord if we just used notes from the diatonic scale, but we raise its third to become a "Phrygian Dominant" III7b9 chord. It "naturally" has a flat 9, and a flat 7 in the scale.

The Phyrigian Dominant chord also has a b6, too, which I find very pretty to play here instead of the 5, and gives a little more tension with a minor-like feel, which to me is exactly what you want as the V chord after a half-diminished ii resolving to a minor i chord. Some call that b6 a #5, and then describe the whole chord as Valt, V+b9, or something like that, to emphasize the augmented nature, but my ear hears only the raised third as being "altered". #5 would imply that the natural 5 would sound "out" here, but it doesn't at all, whereas a natural 6 on this chord definitely sounds out to my ears.

Hope this makes sense. I'm no expert. I've also been playing with this same progression for a while as a great way to explore minor harmony, and I'd love to hear more perspectives on this.

[Rob MacKillop]

A harmonic minor: A B C D E F G# A

Bm7b5: B D F A commonly played as x2323x

E7b9: E G# B D F could be played as 02313x

The Am chord is often played as Am6 and/or Am7 - the G major scale (A Dorian) works well over this, or even the A minor blues scale.

Some people use AmMaj7 - an Am chord with a g# in it. In this case the harmonic minor scale works well.

I hope this helps a little.

[dalibo]

But actually the best way to understand minor keys is that the 6th and 7th degrees are variable, and all three forms of the minor scale (or 4 including dorian) are all just different inflections of the same scale.

Before i understood this i was very confused with what "minor" progression actually is, or minor key in general...
Great answer Ryan on this subject, because i feel a lot of new players have hard time to really understand minor key, because it's not straight forward like major key... i know i had problem grasping the whole minor concept.

[jsaras]

In the key of A minor, use the C major bebop scale; use the G# a lot when you play the E7 chord. Easy peasy.