It Don't Mean A Thing

[Sailor]

Love this...but Real Book progression is lacking something.

What else can I do, subs/voicings to do more with this progression, (which comes up a lot of course).

Gm Gm/F# Gm/F Gm/E etc....

Also, whole melody is in G blues - G, Bb, C, C#, D, F, G. This is considered G blues, right...not G minor Blues?

Thanks, Sailor

[JohnRoss]

This is considered G blues, right...not G minor Blues

Nope, G minor.

[Sailor]

Confused....

http://www.ilearnmusic.com/guitar/scales/g%20blues.jpg

[Aristotle]

It may be minor and blue, but a "minor blues" per se ought to follow one of the standard blues progressions.

[voelker]

It may be minor and blue, but a "minor blues" per se ought to follow one of the standard blues progressions.

I think he was talking about the scale he spelt, not the progression.

The minor blues scale is created by adding a b5th to the minor pentatonic and the major blues scale is created by adding a b3rd to the major pentatonic. It fits right into the relative major/minor concept, (ex) C#/Db is the b5th of G and b3rd of Bb.

I like adding the 9th or 11th on top of the the Gm's;

G-9
xx5335
xx4335
xx3335
xx2335

G-11
xx8788
xx8778
xx8768
xx8758

Tritone subs for Eb7 and D7

[Aristotle]

I think he was talking about the scale he spelt, not the progression.

Maybe. That's why I made the distinction between what he said "G blues" (which sounds like a progression) and what he might have meant, a blue melody. That way, I might have helped him to clarify his question if he needed more info here, and express himself more clearly in the future.
-----

I'd question you about "the" blues scale versus "a" blues scale.

The minor blues scale is created by adding a b5th to the minor pentatonic and the major blues scale is created by adding a b3rd to the major pentatonic.

First, and less imporantly, that's actually one scale, not two. You just describe it in relation to two different roots or tonal centers. That makes it more like two modes of one scale. I don't mind, but when you speak with such definitive certitiude about such things, it makes me wonder....

Where in popular music is there a regulatory body with the authority to declare that the Bb pentatonic over a G bass is not "the" blues scale -
but that if add a Db, it is "the" blues scale,
and if you use a Db instead of a D natural, that is not "the" blues scale,
and if you add a Db and a Gb, that is not "the" blues scale?

[JohnRoss]

Confused....

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse. "It Don't Mean a Thing" isn't a blues (you're talking about the scales used, I realise, not the genre), and isn't even so much in G min as in Bb. I said G minor because each 8-bar "A" is 4 bars in G minor then 4 in Bb. It's probably possible to fit the "whole melody" to a G (minor) blues scale, dunno, don't remember and I'm not going to do the analysis, but the tonal centres say the keys are those, Gm and Bb, and that's how keys are defined, where you feel the music should end up. "It Don't Mean a Thing" is, even if not a blues, nice and bluesy, so if you want to use blues scales over it you should get good results (I used to, I think), but in jazz terms, I'd have said it was more appropriate to think in terms of G minor and Bb.

[Sailor]

Don't mean to confuse, BUT:

easy questions

1. Better voicings for G minor cliche progression - Thanks Voelker.

2. G blues - Jamie Aebersold says there are Major scales, minor scales, Major Pent, Minor Pent, and blues scale, not major or minor, just blues. Do -me - fa - fi -sol - te - do

SO the melody of It don't Mean a Thing is a G blues scale.

Thanks, Sailor

[Aristotle]

SO the melody of It don't Mean a Thing is a G blues scale.

Thanks, Sailor

Yeah. I'd say it's two different blue scales. The first line - it don't mean a thing - uses a D natural. The second line - if it ain't got that swing - uses a Db.

Most probably don't think of those as different. The change in tonality is clear to me because it fits what I see as one of the core ideas of the jazz idiom - many surprise or fresh notes are a half-step lower than expected. For example, there is the common major to minor, like How High The Moon. Also, many blues-based tunes use the major to minor thing. Even the Vb9 can imply the same half-step-low surprise.

[Sailor]

G Blues - G-Bb-C-C#(Db)-D-F-G

One scale

[Aristotle]

It's hard to tell if that is what you are getting out of my post or you are disagreeing. I don't think calling it one scale really "works." I am running out of ways to say it.

Einstein said everything should be made as simple as possible, and no simpler. Each of the following groups of notes combines to produce its own different set of sounds, and some overlapping sounds.
G, Bb, C, D, F
G, Bb, C, Db, F
G, Bb, C, Db, D, F
If you want to think of all that as one scale, I suppose that could work for you depending on what other thinking you use. I'd rather think of them more as different note groups or note sets. Of course, all sets can be sorted by frequency from low to high and called a "scale."

It seems to me insisting on all this as one scale misses the point that the color and feel of the first phrase (with the D natural, and no Db) is distinctly different from the color and feel of the second phrase (with the Db and no D natural).

[JohnRoss]

...there are Major scales, minor scales, Major Pent, Minor Pent, and blues scale, not major or minor, just blues. Do -me - fa - fi -sol - te - do

I don't know what you have been reading, but go and read it again and come back when you understand it - this is gibberish, which doesn't mean I am disagreeing with Jamie Aebersold, it means you are not saying anything meaningful. In the same way as your G blues scale is not the same as anyone else's here. If you don't want to be on the same wavelength as everyone else, that's your prerogative, but what are you asking questions for if you are simply going to ignore the answers?

[Aristotle]

In the same way as your G blues scale is not the same as anyone else's here.

I agree Sailor does not express himself clearly. but I'd love to hear what is different about his blues scale.

Here is what Sailor posted
"G Blues - G-Bb-C-C#(Db)-D-F-G"

Here is voelker posted
"the minor blues scale is created by adding a b5th to the minor pentatonic"

They are not describing the same scale?

[JohnRoss]

Uh, I didn't really want to go into this, as it's only terminology, but this thread began with

This is considered G blues, right...not G minor Blues?

and Sailor has been repeating the same thing over and over since then. There are various kinds of blues scale, of course, and the one he has picked to be "the" blues scale is probably the last one I'd have chosen in a jazz context, though not in lots of other situations, probably including blues. In jazz, though, as I understand things (and perhaps it is me who has the wrong end of the stick), a more usual major blues scale is, for example, a major pentatonic with the flat third added (or maybe a major or mixolydian with the flat third added, perhaps with both major and minor sevenths being included, whatever, the definition of major blues scale includes both major third and minor third). Sailor's scale is a perfectly good candidate to be "the" minor blues scale, though.

In any case, to return to the scales in "It Don't Mean a Thing," I feel that keeping things to a (minor?) blues scale is oversimplifying. I mean, the Db in the melody ("ain't") is usually harmonized by an Eb7 (the Saint James Infirmary bVI7-V7 progression). Apart from the fact, as I say, that the second four bars are not in G minor at all, but Bb. This is Duke Ellington, not Muddy Waters.

[voelker]

Maybe. That's why I made the distinction between what he said "G blues" (which sounds like a progression) and what he might have meant, a blue melody. That way, I might have helped him to clarify his question if he needed more info here, and express himself more clearly in the future.
-----

I'd question you about "the" blues scale versus "a" blues scale. First, and less imporantly, that's actually one scale, not two. You just describe it in relation to two different roots or tonal centers. That makes it more like two modes of one scale. I don't mind, but when you speak with such definitive certitiude about such things, it makes me wonder....

Where in popular music is there a regulatory body with the authority to declare that the Bb pentatonic over a G bass is not "the" blues scale -
but that if add a Db, it is "the" blues scale,
and if you use a Db instead of a D natural, that is not "the" blues scale,
and if you add a Db and a Gb, that is not "the" blues scale?

U guys are making this more difficult than need be.
First of all modes were scales before they were modes. C major or C ionian,shares the same notes with A natural minor or A aeolian. G minor blues or Bb major blues? Depends on if your playing Gm7 or Bb7. I would agree that "the" blues scale is usually considered the minor pent w/ b5, but it can definatly be subcategorized if u want, just don't get too caught up in naming the scale. Just know that the b5 and b3 are the blue notes, so over a dom7 chord you get that b3rd,3rd, which u don't want over a m7 chord. That's simplicity I think einstien would aprove of.

[Aristotle]

In any case, to return to the scales in "It Don't Mean a Thing," I feel that keeping things to a (minor?) blues scale is oversimplifying.

I agree. Wasn't my first post that it may be blue - as in have a blue note or blue phrase - but it is not "the" blues?

U guys are making this more difficult than need be.
First of all modes were scales before they were modes.

Yeah, that second sentence really makes things less difficult. Which came first, the scale or the mode?

[mr. beaumont]

This thread is hilarious! Sorry, Sailor.

yes, that's a G blues scale. The Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with a flatted fifth added in...so calling it a "minor" blues scale just serves as a source of confusion--the "minor" is redundant. btw, correctly notated, it's got a Db, not a C#, as we're talking about lowering the fifth of the scale...that's just a nitpick, though...

as for the begininng of the tune, you're being given chords that are a "composite" of sorts--bassline and chord on top.

so look at what that bassline's actually doing....hmmm...what if we put those notes on the fourth string? HA! it's the classic minor cliche--

G-, G-/maj7, G-7, G-6

try this-- two beats per chord...keep it chunky, this is swing, after all.

x x 5 3 3 x

x x 4 3 3 x

x x 3 3 3 x

x x 2 3 3 x

there's other places to do this as well, but this will get you far...freddie green those dominant chords that follow, and clarinet players will start showing up at your house (assuming the windows are open)

[Sailor]

Thanks Mr. B - as you know from my previous 1000 posts I'm far from confused!! Probably a LOT more music ed than most...anyway.

Thanks for the chord idea, AND, there is only ONE blues scale...as agreed.

Thanks Finally,
Sailor

[JohnRoss]

x x 5 3 3 x

x x 4 3 3 x

x x 3 3 3 x

x x 2 3 3 x

and continuing

x 6 5 6 x x

x 5 4 5 x x

x x 5 3 3 x

x x 5 3 3 x

then 4 beats per chord

x 1 3 x 3 x

x 1 2 x 2 x

x 1 1 x 1 x

6 x 3 x 3 x

[Aristotle]

This thread is hilarious! Sorry, Sailor.

yes, that's a G blues scale. The Blues scale is a minor pentatonic with a flatted fifth added in...

It is a funny thread and a funny forum. This is an art form that has improvisions as a core virtue - and yet the forum is loaded with pronouncements of rigid doctinaire rule-giving. "This is THE blues scale."

Even more ironic, the supposed rules of black music are being laid down by mostly white boys. Who presumably know all about picking cotton all day as a share cropper, and singing to the lawd about how tiy'd they is.

Before the age of Berklee, some of the unwashed barbarians were taught that "the" G blues scale wasn't C, C#, D, but a variable pitch "scale" that would be better (although not perfectly) described as starting on C and "bending" or "sliding" all the way to D. And the feel and color and "soul" of the music is found in, among other things, how far and how fast one slid or streched up from the C, and that didn't necessarily mean stopping exactly on the C# or D.

So, you are adapting "scales" that are not based on the physical limits of a fretted instrument, fitting it to your fretted instrument, and declaring the inherently limited adaptation, "the" scale. It's like driving a square peg into a round hole and declaling the peg round. It is hilarious.

[mr. beaumont]

you're as philosophic as your name suggests.

but the "blues scale" were talking about here is just a name. It's not necessarily a scale used by old bluesmen, but look in 100 books, and there it is--minor pentatonic with an added flatted fifth--blues scale. that's all sailor was asking--and that's why i found the thread funny....i'm a member at another forum which is populated by a lot of rugged "anti-intellectuals" who answer questions about music fundamentals and theory with:

""i don't play no demolished scales."

then there's this forum, where we analyze everything a poster asks to death...or in the case of this thread, analyze a bunch of stuff the OP wasn't even touching on, while failing to answer any of the questions the OP posed!

that's what's funny to me.

as for the racial stuff, just stop, you're gonna embarass yourself.

[Sailor]

Beam me up Mr. B!...quickly!! Energize!!

Oh, and thanks for actually answering my questions.

Sailor

[[email protected]]

Thanks ,from me also my band has been doing "it dont mean a thing for a while now, and I've been trying to figure a cool way to comp those first four bars.I'll see how this works, we have a gig tonight. Bob

[Aristotle]

you're as philosophic as your name suggests.

Factual accuracy is very different than philosophy.

but the "blues scale" were talking about here is just a name. It's not necessarily a scale used by old bluesmen,

I said that already.

but look in 100 books, and there it is--minor pentatonic with an added flatted fifth--

Depends on when those books were written.

[Baltar Hornbeek]

Even more ironic, the supposed rules of black music are being laid down by mostly white boys..

Rules? you can see them as rules if you want, but that would be your crutch.