The Girl From Ipanema - Gb7+4 Chord

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

looking at the notes for the Gb7#11 from Girl from Ipanema:

Gb7#11: Gb Bb C Db E (1 3 #11 5 7)
Gb altered scale: Gb G A Bb C D E (1 b9 #9 3 #11 b13 7)
Gb mixolydian#11: Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb E (1 9 3 #11 5 13 7)

By the way, the Gb chord in the pdf had a ninth, too (Gb E Ab Bb C).

If I had to choose one scale here, it would be the Gb mixolydian#11 -- the chord is subbing for the C dominant, and I like the bluesier C-Db-Eb for a C chord feel. By contrast, C-D-E is too straight.

Note by the way, these are the same scale, shifted a tritone:

Gb altered = C mixolydian #11
Gb mixolydian#11 = C altered

[fep]

Gb mixolydian #11? Are you sure that's a commonly used term.

I've always heard it as being a Gb lydian dominant.

Mixolydian #11 is confusining... what do you do with the 4th scale degree? (That's a rhetorical question, I know you # the 4th)

[shoome]

lydian dominant, lydian b7, mixolydian #11... I've heard all of those names and I think all of those are kind of generally acceptable terms.
I didn't want to start a discussion about the terms, I'm sorry if I could've been understood that way, I just wanted to mention that in some cases the altered scale is not the "propper" scale for a 7th chord that has an alteration, e.g. subV7 (esp. tritone sub), secondary dominants etc.

It was by no means ment to gainsay you, I just wanted to clear it out and I can only second everything else in your post and the other ones on this thread!
:-)

[Reg]

Reg-that'd be fantastic, if you wouldn't mind. It'd take me ages (and that's an under-estimate!!)

Hey man I just listen to the mp3... pretty cool, could use a little more variation, do like his use of minor maj line cliches. Any way I have gigs every night through next Mon., so I'll try and transcribe it after tonight's gig, It's probable the earliest I'll get home... Best Reg

[billkath]

Reg-I think I love you (but in a manly, good-on-you-buddy sort way, of course!)

I love the way this is played. It's the EXACT kind of thing I think I should be doing behind my sax player in our duo gigs. It really opened my eyes as to the style of jazz rhythm guitar I should be putting in more time at.


Thanks a million. Whenever you get the chance-I'm back to gigging 4-5 nights a week as well, so I know how you need your downtime.

[fep]

Hey Bill,

Where did the mp3 come from? That's some really nice comping.

[billkath]

It's from the Aebersold series, Fep-Vol 98 -Antonio Carlos Jobim - Bossa Nova.
I don't know if people ever noticed, but they are cleverly done, these Aebersolds. They are not in "Stereo, but rather dual mono. On one channel you have drum and bass, and on the other side the comping instrument-in this case a guitar.
One simply splits the stereo wave file to dual mono, discard the D+B track, pan the other track centre, and adjust the volume back up by +3dB. Save as a mono wave file, or a mono MP3 then.
One could use them as a backing track out live, by doing the opposite track, giving you just bass and drums. All that needs to be done is a slight bit of re-mastering to give a corrected bit of sheen and thump for live PA.

[Reg]

Hey Bill... Here's the 1st time through, I got a little lazy at end... you should have feel and style of voicings,( 4ths) by then, only had a little time to write it out...Best Reg

[billkath]

Ah, Reg-Thats bloody brilliant! This is exactly what I needed.

I think that the Aebersold series are primarily a tool to help you learn lead improvisation. Your transcription will allow me to compare their lead sheet and chords with their comping guitar on the backing track. I'm thinking that perhaps they put in those chords on their leadsheet for the soloist- to give hints about the arps and scales that might be used in their solo? And that what the comping guitar player is doing is actually improvising, and substituting over these standard changes?

If that's the case, then this is the eye-opener that I've been looking for- an epiphany moment. For me-comping is what I'm most interested in-playing behind the main soloist, and perhaps taking the lead on occasion.

If what I'm thinking is correct, then what I should be doing is changing the focus in my learning-to concentrate on creating interesting backing through substitution and rhythmic devices.

Thanks a million, Reg-you've helped hugely!

[Reg]

Hey Bill... thanks.... The harmonic areas are basically the same as original. The 1st chord of bridge or bar 15, Eb9sus could easily be a Gb maj79/13, no root, as with most of the voicings and the next chord or Eb9#11 could be a B13#11 with out root. But what's cool is the use of line cliches that imply the original harmony or changes. Best Reg

[fep]

Great job Reg

[JohnRoss]

what do they mean by the Gb7+4?

Not that there is an earth-shattering difference, but I've always thought it was more of a Gb7 b5 (Dbb rather than C natural). If it were a sharp 4 or 11, the perfect 5th (Db) would still be valid, even if not included in the chord. But the vamp or turnaround ("she doesn't see...") clearly needs to be sung as E (in relation to the F chord, or Fb, in relation to the Gb) and D, so if you add the perfect 5th, you would have three chromatically adjacent notes, all valid - C, Db and D natural. So leave the Db out, and we are left with an alt, instead, flat fifth plus sharp fifth. This allows us to make things even simpler and consider it a tritone substitution of a C7, and hey, look, it was a V-I all the time, just pretending to be something more complicated.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A couple scales you could use!

For some reason, my head is spinning; let me try to walk through this. Tell me if it makes sense...

In Ipanema, this chord pops up in "FMaj7 Gb7+4 FMaj7" and at the end: "Gmin7 Gb7+4 FMaj7", so it's clear to my ears that it's a sub for a C dominant chord. It doesn't have any melody notes played over it until the end, when the melody consists of C E and D, and that fits with a C dominant notion.

What scale notes can you play? If you want to stick close to C dominant, I would think of starting off with C mixolydian:

C D E F G A Bb C

but tweaking it to use the Gb/F# -- which one? Gb would mean tweaking too many other notes, so I would go with F# and avoid too much emphasis on the G -- because the F# is probably the bass note:

#1: C D E F# [G] A Bb C -- So, C lydian dominant, easy on the fifth...

Other scales? C altered (Gb lydian dominant) is more outside, but it has got bluesy sounds, which makes it sound nice to me:

#2: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C

This doesn't have the Dnat of that final melody, but I guess that's why they call it the blues (sorry!)

b5 chords tempt me to dabble in the wholetone scale:

#3: C D E F# G# Bb C

That's fun to sneak in, but it sounds to me like "look, I'm sneaking in the wholetone scale!"; maybe I'm just self conscience.

What else? A diminished scale?

#4: C Db Eb Enat F# [G] A Bb C

There's always a diminished scale lurking somewhere...

[Reg]

Not that there is an earth-shattering difference, but I've always thought it was more of a Gb7 b5 (Dbb rather than C natural). If it were a sharp 4 or 11, the perfect 5th (Db) would still be valid, even if not included in the chord. But the vamp or turnaround ("she doesn't see...") clearly needs to be sung as E (in relation to the F chord, or Fb, in relation to the Gb) and D, so if you add the perfect 5th, you would have three chromatically adjacent notes, all valid - C, Db and D natural. So leave the Db out, and we are left with an alt, instead, flat fifth plus sharp fifth. This allows us to make things even simpler and consider it a tritone substitution of a C7, and hey, look, it was a V-I all the time, just pretending to be something more complicated.

Gb7#11 is the sub-V for C7. Sub V's, which usually have 1/2 step root motion almost always come from 4th degree of Melodic Min. 1,3,5,b7,9,#11,13. There are a few situations where a Dom.7 chord has a b5... and this is not one of them. When you say b5 your typically implying that b5 is the 5th of chord. If you need a chord for the D add the actual V chord or C7, or a chromatic approach chord. It's pretty common practice in jazz for melodies to have tones not diatonic to chord of moment. A simple example would be blue notes over maj7 chords. Just as there are standard chord patterns or root patterns which your ears automatically hear, there are standard note or melodic patterns, that your ears automatically hear. An example would be a I VI II V. The simple version would be all diatonic chords, Imaj7, VI-7, II-7, V7, but in jazz it's very common to hear for example in key of Bb; Bb13 , G7#9 , C-9 , F7#9b13, even when the melody is somewhat straight. Or turn it around and have straight chords and a bluesier melody. I'm not trying to rag but... chords and melodies in jazz come from standard sources, Nat Min, Melodic Min, Har. Min and Har. Maj and a few symmetric scales, which depending on how you spell the chord tones of a V7 chord...could have b5 and #5. But typically chords have all the chord tones and are spelled as so. Best Reg

[randalljazz]

click on the link in post #26, scroll down to the end vamp, notice the piano's bass notes on the Gb7#11...

[JohnRoss]

click on the link in post #26, scroll down to the end vamp, notice the piano's bass notes on the Gb7#11...

Gb and E natural, not Fb. Says 'C' to me, but that's just how I get my head round it, doesn't make me right or anyone else wrong. You guys are way ahead of me on the jazz theory, but I do know a wee bit of classical theory, and I feel that chord as a C7b5 (or Gb7 b5, it's only spelling), with the Gb in the bass to make that sweet chromatic slide down from the Gm. ii - V - I, Mozart could almost have written it.

(I can't account for the Ab, though.)

[fep]

Gb and E natural, not Fb. Says 'C' to me, but that's just how I get my head round it, doesn't make me right or anyone else wrong. You guys are way ahead of me on the jazz theory, but I do know a wee bit of classical theory, and I feel that chord as a C7b5 (or Gb7 b5, it's only spelling), with the Gb in the bass to make that sweet chromatic slide down from the Gm. ii - V - I, Mozart could almost have written it.

(I can't account for the Ab, though.)

Hey John, how about re-spelling it thus: Gb E Bb C

In the key of Bb thats a: b6, 1, #4, 2. In classical theory it's a Fr+6 (French augmented sixth chord!).

Mozart did use it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

click on the link in post #26, scroll down to the end vamp, notice the piano's bass notes on the Gb7#11...

Is this in reply to any particular post?

I was looking at that pdf. The end vamp has the chord notation:

Gm7 Gb7(9) Fmaj7 Gb7(#11) FMaj7 Gb7(#11) FMaj7(#11) FMaj7(9)

Looking at the actual piano part:

1. The Gm7 is played Gm9. I like the minor 2nd in the chord D-A-Bb-D-F -- piano players have it easy!

2. Because of the melody, there's a #11 played in the Gb7(9), but there's no #11s played over either Gb7(#11) -- chicken! Cluck, cluck!

3. MAIN POINT: horizontally, the bass line is G-D Gb-Db F-C Gb-Db F-C Gb-Db F-C, so there are your natural fifths over Gb.

4. Another nice chord. Last chord: F C A C D E G

So, even if the piano adds some Cnats, the Db works in the bass. The #11 chord sounds more modern than a b5 chord (and a bass line of Gb-C). Bossa nova is more modern, so that makes sense.

Although this clashed a wee bit with the Dnat melody note, but horizontal lines win out.

[JohnRoss]

horizontally, the bass line is G-D Gb-Db F-C Gb-Db F-C Gb-Db F-C, so there are your natural fifths over Gb.

So they are, fancy my not remembering them.