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  1. #151

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    I met Oscar Ghiglia in Wellington New Zealand back in the early '70's.
    I was doing a classical guitar major at University and was in my first year.
    Oscar was doing a tour of New Zealand and a fellow student and I went to a rehearsal session
    he was having with the NZ Symphony Orchestra.
    Of course, he was playing the Aranjuez Concerto....but my friend and I had not heard the work played live up to that time.

    So we got seats in the circle and clutching our scores we sat in rapt attention.....He made it all seem so easy.
    Come the end of the rehearsal we rushed down to the green room to meet the man.
    He was very patient with our questions about certain passages....[anyone who's attempted the work know the ones]

    He was putting his guitar away and suggested that he felt like a coffee and would be happy to continue the conversation
    if we could suggest a nice cafe.....Well, he must have spent about an hour of his time showing how he [and most pros]
    were dealing with some of the many thorny bits that are peppered through the work.
    The kicker for me was how in the 3rd movement he simply inverted the arpeggiated chord section so as to keep the same
    melody notes on to, so much easier...just common scale tone voicings. I was amazed....wow....you can do that! LOL

    What a generous soul ....an unforgettable experience to hang with one of the greats!

    Like your teacher I'd thrown in the gig scene ....rock/blues a little jazz snuck in here and there and playing to drunks or heads
    and coming home at all hours stinking of cigarette smoke.
    Hence my dedicated albeit late start in classical guitar study....at age 22.
    Still love it....but the improv thing keeps tugging at my sleeve.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    A few years ago, my teacher asked me to help Oscar Ghiglia, a longtime good friend of his, with an unrelated non musical matter, which I did. I eventually got to meet Oscar, and heard him give a master class to Northwestern University graduate students ( The woman who heads the guitar department at Northwestern school of music is a former student of Oscar’s, and always has him come and perform every year). I mean, these graduate students were serious players of course, but the advice Oscar imparted on their interpretive skills was HUGE. You could hear the differences almost immediately, even a schlump like me noticed.

    For those that do not know, Oscar was Segovia‘s most famous student, studying with the maestro for 10 years. I found him to be a very nice, down to earth guy with a very quick wit and an articulate, very cultured point of view.

    I was thinking about the relationship between Jazz and classical players. I remember this conversation I had with my old teacher; he recounted in an interview with Studs Terkel in 1968 that becoming a professional classical Player after already being a professional jazz musician helped keep him sane , Because the sad reality is, being a professional jazz musician meant playing your heart out in a a bar or a club in which most people are talking over you, don’t really give a shit, and are more concerned with getting drunk and barely noticing the music at all. The much more respected classical venues at least meant people were paying attention to the music. .

    He had this great story, he was playing electric guitar with the singer Peggy Lee in her band at a small jazz club in Chicago. Before anyone else would arrive, he would show up early and bring his classical guitar to keep his chops up-to-date and practice the classical repertoire in a room away from everybody else. One day when he was doing this, as he finished, he heard a noise and looked behind. It was Peggy Lee, and she had heard the entire practice repertoire and was in tears and demanded that he perform a solo classical set before hrr Jazz group played. He happily complied and did double duty .

    This double duty kind of created this attitude in which his fellow musicians saw all that green grass over there. Oscar for example, was always wowed by his Jazz playing, and conversely, every time Joe Pass would come into town, he would always demand that he played classical guitar for him. After he would finish, Joe would always say something like, “Man, what do you play is real art and when I play is bullshit “. Talk about being humble and self deprecating. Wow.

    By the way, Bream asked him to play jazz with him in a duet setting . It did not go well at all, he felt Bream was stuck in the 1930s and was downright brutal with the guitar . That is actually not a surprise conclusion for anyone who has watched Bream’s DVD documentary of his life, when he subbed for a jazz big band for a Fiver in London. The big bandleader thanked him for his service and said if he showed up tomorrow, he would give him a rhythm guitar lesson

    Thank God he had his day job !

    The other thing I want to say about the relationship between jazz and classical is another story my teacher said about long ongoing conversations he had with Jimmy Weible decades ago. Jimmy was developing his ideas about two line counterpoint on an improvised basis , and my teacher convinced him the in order to develop these ideas more fully, he needed to develop his right hand in a more systematic way by taking formal classical guitar lessons. Finally Jimmy agreed, and my teacher flew out to LA to help him get a very nice guitar with one of the famous Spanish guitar makers he knew. I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.

    The point is, Jimmy studied classical guitar not to perform classical music, but to develop his technical skills in order to musically develop his jazz improv two line improv ideas better.
    What's your teachers name?

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ
    I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.
    Laurindo Almeida

  5. #154

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    I studied jazz guitar in college.

    It has served me well.

    I have never formally studied classical guitar, although I have played around with solo pieces and use classical technique for finger picking.

    My suggestion is to study both and get what you want/need out of each. Your own style will emerge. You may find you like one better than the other and decide to pursue that one, full time.

    Good luck to you.

  6. #155

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  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval
    The preciseness required in classical playing often sounds stiff to me when applied to jazz. The freedom jazz playing allows often sounds sloppy when applied to classical.

    For example, playing out of time and out of key in jazz can be a good thing. Playing out of time and out of key in classical is usually a bad thing.

    Not to say that jazz is not precise and classical is not free, but each seems to require a different kind of preciseness and freedom. It generally appears really tough for most players to get to where the desireable characteristics for each style is second nature.
    Precision in jazz is not uncommon: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, etc. Freedom in classical is also not so uncommon, especially among the Latin American players. Do you think Charlie Byrd, with his W. Virginia blues background as well as classes with Segovia, sounded stiff? The major players of jazz on the classical guitar generally sound quite fluid when improvising: Bertoncini and Almeida come to mind. Classical technique actually frees you up to have more creativity, in fact.

  8. #157

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    Precision in jazz is not uncommon: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, etc. Freedom in classical is also not so uncommon, especially among the Latin American players. Do you think Charlie Byrd, with his W. Virginia blues background as well as classes with Segovia, sounded stiff? The major players of jazz on the classical guitar generally sound quite fluid when improvising: Bertoncini and Almeida come to mind. Classical technique actually frees you up to have more creativity, in fact.
    I would not treat it too litterately. That concerns the style an dlanguage and the technique is the result...
    The precision of Pat Martino and Johnny Smith shows in different aspects in music than the precision of technique required in classical perfomance...

    Jazz style is kitchy essentially, it has to be sloppy and overexaggerated in expression even when it sounds sophisticated... this makes players control different things.

    And I do not think that the classical technique does free you... at least the modern one... it just teaches you to play every thing... the whole method is built around developing skills to play any note in any needed way in any context. Which is only seemingly good... because the real music is about bad and good notes... the real music is connected with the real instrument... 19th century technique on guitar used weak and strong points to make music.

    The problem of modern academic classicism is too much abstracy from the instrument.


    Besides I always felt there is something unnatural even in fingerstyle (not necessarily classcal) jazz guitar (whatever respect I have for specific players)... it's like it is a bit too much to play jazz with)))
    It very often turns into demostration of skills...

    But I do not like modern classical guitar school in general - so I am prejudiced.

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I would not treat it too litterately. That concerns the style an dlanguage and the technique is the result...
    The precision of Pat Martino and Johnny Smith shows in different aspects in music than the precision of technique required in classical perfomance...

    Jazz style is kitchy essentially, it has to be sloppy and overexaggerated in expression even when it sounds sophisticated... this makes players control different things.

    And I do not think that the classical technique does free you... at least the modern one... it just teaches you to play every thing... the whole method is built around developing skills to play any note in any needed way in any context. Which is only seemingly good... because the real music is about bad and good notes... the real music is connected with the real instrument... 19th century technique on guitar used weak and strong points to make music.

    The problem of modern academic classicism is too much abstracy from the instrument.


    Besides I always felt there is something unnatural even in fingerstyle (not necessarily classcal) jazz guitar (whatever respect I have for specific players)... it's like it is a bit too much to play jazz with)))
    It very often turns into demostration of skills...

    But I do not like modern classical guitar school in general - so I am prejudiced.
    Yes, I can see that you don't like the guitar very much, nor music. You sound very conflicted. There really is no problem with modern academic classicism, the problem is with the listener. And virtually every genre of music is a demonstration of skills, or lack of same.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Yes, I can see that you don't like the guitar very much, nor music. You sound very conflicted. There really is no problem with modern academic classicism, the problem is with the listener. And virtually every genre of music is a demonstration of skills, or lack of same.
    You did not mention that first of all I do not like people.

  11. #160

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    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.
    Rigidity can happen here as well, but it's getting looser all the time. I p\spent quite a few hours with John Williams trying to teach him jazz, but he didn't really have a swing feel. However, Bream did, LaGoya did, Jason Vieaux and Fred Hand do, and their lessons show it. Those barriers are coming down, bit by bit, at least in free countries.

  13. #162

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    Another thing, I noticed a few Classical and flamenco players here who seriously studied that music for a long time and achieved a virtuosity level, and decided to play jazz. While as a solo performers they sound quite impressive, in a band situation they... to put mildly not that good. Their timing and sense of form suck. Locking up with a rhythm section is not happening. But they think they are hot sh$t because, well, they are virtuosos with amazing technique. That's my experience, I dont know how common it is.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.
    Its the same with calssical music teaching/teachers here in Hungary. They are (respect to the exceptions) all "classical nazis". Nothing is music except classical they say... Neverthless I have to say that we who try to play the guitar in the jazz scene, we also must know how to read the classical sheet properly. Thats why I practise this nowadays. The other side of the coin is that pop/blues/jazz players think that classical musicians are only workmans, skilled labourers who read the sight music but dont know anything about music at all (and the pop/rock etc guys "ofcz" cant read even 1 note from sheet, and dont know the freatboard etc etc...). Every side has its rights, but neither of these sides try to getting closer to each, to evolve a musical teaching method where these two sides are merged together. Every side has to learn the methods of the others side (not like in star wars lol), to be a really good player.
    Last edited by mrblues; 06-19-2019 at 04:26 AM.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues
    Its the same with calssical music teaching/teachers here in Hungary. They are (respect to the exceptions) all "classical nazis". Nothing is music except classical they say... Neverthless I have to say that we who try to play the guitar in the jazz scene, we also must know how to read the classical sheet properly. Thats why I practise this nowadays. The other side of the coin is that pop/blues/jazz players think that classical musicians are only workmans, skilled labourers who read the sight music but dont know anything about music at all (and the pop/rock etc guys "ofcz" cant read even 1 note from sheet, and dont know the freatboard etc etc...). Every side has its rights, but neither of these sides try to getting closer to each, to evolve a musical teaching method where these two sides are merged together. Every side has to learn the methods of the others side (not like in star wars lol), to be a really good player.
    I agree with all you said. Personally, I love Classical guitar, I love playing it and I even teach it. I just think you got to approach it smart. I take what I like from it, some technical stuff, reading, and leave out the rest. But there is a lot of benefit for all kinds music if you study it.

  16. #165

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    This kid got it right!


  17. #166

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    I went down to the cross roads, fell down on my knees
    I went down to the cross roads, fell down on my knees
    Brought my class-e-kaall gee-tar, Se-go-vee-aaah don't bother meeeeee

    I never saw that movie... really gotta find it.

    I learned a couple of tings from the classical guitar world

    1. Segovia fingerings (classical guitarists don't even use 'em anymore)--I found them very useful for learning how to shift musically across the fretboard. All of my scale studies incorporate different shifting principles. I don't like positional playing all the time--but that's just me. Oh, check out Abel Carlevaro, if you really want to practice your shifts.

    2. Carcassi studies, yes they are great for technique.

    3. Bach Violin Partitas and Sonatas--gotta go back to them--fun fact, Howard Alden told me this is one way that he worked up his technique.

    4. Tone production and connecting every note UNLESS you want to play staccato--the guitar is a very staccato instrument, but it doesn't have to be chained to that as a dictum. I'm talking about playing legato with a plectrum, not legato playing ala Holdsworth (though his playing is pretty wild and beautiful). This is the one take-away I got from studying with James Chirillo. We didn't directly study rhythm guitar, but he was ALL about connecting the notes--even with the Van Eps studies we did--thank you James, but why couldn't you teach me a little Freddie Green--just a little?

    5. Dynamic control--listen to Bream, Segovia, and yes, John Williams (let's stop hating on John--classical guitar world)

    6. Thematic development--listen to Beethoven and Moe-zarht. I grew up listening to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Dylan, Beatles, and John Coltrane with my dad--odd mix, huh? He would always walk around the apartment humming Beethoven or Mozart--so I think I got some of it in my ear.

  18. #167

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    Only the amateur, wannabe classical guitar world hates on John Williams. the REAL players have the utmost respect for him.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    Only the amateur, wannabe classical guitar world hates on John Williams. the REAL players have the utmost respect for him.
    Sure thing. Same thing in jazz. Only wannabees hate guys like Martino, Gambale, Bireli and Grasso. You know guys with unreal chops. They invariably come up with the "no emotion" and "no soul" cliches. I wonder what psychological device is behind that.

    DB

  20. #169

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    It's funny how some people think it's OK to play out of time in jazz.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    This kid got it right!

    I was really into the blues back in the eighties and bought a strat and started learning the blues. I saw this movie and was blown away by the guitar playing in it- the Arlen Roth and Ry Cooder slide, but especially the head cutting battle at the end with Steve Vai.

    I wanted to play like that, so I bought a classical guitar and a telecaster and started taking classical guitar lessons to develop good technique, especially right hand technique. I ended up falling in love with classical guitar, too.