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  1. #151

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    I met Oscar Ghiglia in Wellington New Zealand back in the early '70's.
    I was doing a classical guitar major at University and was in my first year.
    Oscar was doing a tour of New Zealand and a fellow student and I went to a rehearsal session
    he was having with the NZ Symphony Orchestra.
    Of course, he was playing the Aranjuez Concerto....but my friend and I had not heard the work played live up to that time.

    So we got seats in the circle and clutching our scores we sat in rapt attention.....He made it all seem so easy.
    Come the end of the rehearsal we rushed down to the green room to meet the man.
    He was very patient with our questions about certain passages....[anyone who's attempted the work know the ones]

    He was putting his guitar away and suggested that he felt like a coffee and would be happy to continue the conversation
    if we could suggest a nice cafe.....Well, he must have spent about an hour of his time showing how he [and most pros]
    were dealing with some of the many thorny bits that are peppered through the work.
    The kicker for me was how in the 3rd movement he simply inverted the arpeggiated chord section so as to keep the same
    melody notes on to, so much easier...just common scale tone voicings. I was amazed....wow....you can do that! LOL

    What a generous soul ....an unforgettable experience to hang with one of the greats!

    Like your teacher I'd thrown in the gig scene ....rock/blues a little jazz snuck in here and there and playing to drunks or heads
    and coming home at all hours stinking of cigarette smoke.
    Hence my dedicated albeit late start in classical guitar study....at age 22.
    Still love it....but the improv thing keeps tugging at my sleeve.

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  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    A few years ago, my teacher asked me to help Oscar Ghiglia, a longtime good friend of his, with an unrelated non musical matter, which I did. I eventually got to meet Oscar, and heard him give a master class to Northwestern University graduate students ( The woman who heads the guitar department at Northwestern school of music is a former student of Oscar’s, and always has him come and perform every year). I mean, these graduate students were serious players of course, but the advice Oscar imparted on their interpretive skills was HUGE. You could hear the differences almost immediately, even a schlump like me noticed.

    For those that do not know, Oscar was Segovia‘s most famous student, studying with the maestro for 10 years. I found him to be a very nice, down to earth guy with a very quick wit and an articulate, very cultured point of view.

    I was thinking about the relationship between Jazz and classical players. I remember this conversation I had with my old teacher; he recounted in an interview with Studs Terkel in 1968 that becoming a professional classical Player after already being a professional jazz musician helped keep him sane , Because the sad reality is, being a professional jazz musician meant playing your heart out in a a bar or a club in which most people are talking over you, don’t really give a shit, and are more concerned with getting drunk and barely noticing the music at all. The much more respected classical venues at least meant people were paying attention to the music. .

    He had this great story, he was playing electric guitar with the singer Peggy Lee in her band at a small jazz club in Chicago. Before anyone else would arrive, he would show up early and bring his classical guitar to keep his chops up-to-date and practice the classical repertoire in a room away from everybody else. One day when he was doing this, as he finished, he heard a noise and looked behind. It was Peggy Lee, and she had heard the entire practice repertoire and was in tears and demanded that he perform a solo classical set before hrr Jazz group played. He happily complied and did double duty .

    This double duty kind of created this attitude in which his fellow musicians saw all that green grass over there. Oscar for example, was always wowed by his Jazz playing, and conversely, every time Joe Pass would come into town, he would always demand that he played classical guitar for him. After he would finish, Joe would always say something like, “Man, what do you play is real art and when I play is bullshit “. Talk about being humble and self deprecating. Wow.

    By the way, Bream asked him to play jazz with him in a duet setting . It did not go well at all, he felt Bream was stuck in the 1930s and was downright brutal with the guitar . That is actually not a surprise conclusion for anyone who has watched Bream’s DVD documentary of his life, when he subbed for a jazz big band for a Fiver in London. The big bandleader thanked him for his service and said if he showed up tomorrow, he would give him a rhythm guitar lesson

    Thank God he had his day job !

    The other thing I want to say about the relationship between jazz and classical is another story my teacher said about long ongoing conversations he had with Jimmy Weible decades ago. Jimmy was developing his ideas about two line counterpoint on an improvised basis , and my teacher convinced him the in order to develop these ideas more fully, he needed to develop his right hand in a more systematic way by taking formal classical guitar lessons. Finally Jimmy agreed, and my teacher flew out to LA to help him get a very nice guitar with one of the famous Spanish guitar makers he knew. I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.

    The point is, Jimmy studied classical guitar not to perform classical music, but to develop his technical skills in order to musically develop his jazz improv two line improv ideas better.
    What's your teachers name?

    Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by NSJ View Post
    I believe the Jimmy actually studied classical with the Brazilian guy who played with the modern jazz quartet among others and lived in United States for many years . Not Baden Powell or Luis Bonfa, I can never remember his name.
    Laurindo Almeida

  5. #154

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    I studied jazz guitar in college.

    It has served me well.

    I have never formally studied classical guitar, although I have played around with solo pieces and use classical technique for finger picking.

    My suggestion is to study both and get what you want/need out of each. Your own style will emerge. You may find you like one better than the other and decide to pursue that one, full time.

    Good luck to you.

  6. #155

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  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by funnyval View Post
    The preciseness required in classical playing often sounds stiff to me when applied to jazz. The freedom jazz playing allows often sounds sloppy when applied to classical.

    For example, playing out of time and out of key in jazz can be a good thing. Playing out of time and out of key in classical is usually a bad thing.

    Not to say that jazz is not precise and classical is not free, but each seems to require a different kind of preciseness and freedom. It generally appears really tough for most players to get to where the desireable characteristics for each style is second nature.
    Precision in jazz is not uncommon: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, etc. Freedom in classical is also not so uncommon, especially among the Latin American players. Do you think Charlie Byrd, with his W. Virginia blues background as well as classes with Segovia, sounded stiff? The major players of jazz on the classical guitar generally sound quite fluid when improvising: Bertoncini and Almeida come to mind. Classical technique actually frees you up to have more creativity, in fact.

  8. #157

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    Precision in jazz is not uncommon: Pat Martino, Johnny Smith, etc. Freedom in classical is also not so uncommon, especially among the Latin American players. Do you think Charlie Byrd, with his W. Virginia blues background as well as classes with Segovia, sounded stiff? The major players of jazz on the classical guitar generally sound quite fluid when improvising: Bertoncini and Almeida come to mind. Classical technique actually frees you up to have more creativity, in fact.
    I would not treat it too litterately. That concerns the style an dlanguage and the technique is the result...
    The precision of Pat Martino and Johnny Smith shows in different aspects in music than the precision of technique required in classical perfomance...

    Jazz style is kitchy essentially, it has to be sloppy and overexaggerated in expression even when it sounds sophisticated... this makes players control different things.

    And I do not think that the classical technique does free you... at least the modern one... it just teaches you to play every thing... the whole method is built around developing skills to play any note in any needed way in any context. Which is only seemingly good... because the real music is about bad and good notes... the real music is connected with the real instrument... 19th century technique on guitar used weak and strong points to make music.

    The problem of modern academic classicism is too much abstracy from the instrument.


    Besides I always felt there is something unnatural even in fingerstyle (not necessarily classcal) jazz guitar (whatever respect I have for specific players)... it's like it is a bit too much to play jazz with)))
    It very often turns into demostration of skills...

    But I do not like modern classical guitar school in general - so I am prejudiced.

  9. #158

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I would not treat it too litterately. That concerns the style an dlanguage and the technique is the result...
    The precision of Pat Martino and Johnny Smith shows in different aspects in music than the precision of technique required in classical perfomance...

    Jazz style is kitchy essentially, it has to be sloppy and overexaggerated in expression even when it sounds sophisticated... this makes players control different things.

    And I do not think that the classical technique does free you... at least the modern one... it just teaches you to play every thing... the whole method is built around developing skills to play any note in any needed way in any context. Which is only seemingly good... because the real music is about bad and good notes... the real music is connected with the real instrument... 19th century technique on guitar used weak and strong points to make music.

    The problem of modern academic classicism is too much abstracy from the instrument.


    Besides I always felt there is something unnatural even in fingerstyle (not necessarily classcal) jazz guitar (whatever respect I have for specific players)... it's like it is a bit too much to play jazz with)))
    It very often turns into demostration of skills...

    But I do not like modern classical guitar school in general - so I am prejudiced.
    Yes, I can see that you don't like the guitar very much, nor music. You sound very conflicted. There really is no problem with modern academic classicism, the problem is with the listener. And virtually every genre of music is a demonstration of skills, or lack of same.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Yes, I can see that you don't like the guitar very much, nor music. You sound very conflicted. There really is no problem with modern academic classicism, the problem is with the listener. And virtually every genre of music is a demonstration of skills, or lack of same.
    You did not mention that first of all I do not like people.

  11. #160

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    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.
    Rigidity can happen here as well, but it's getting looser all the time. I p\spent quite a few hours with John Williams trying to teach him jazz, but he didn't really have a swing feel. However, Bream did, LaGoya did, Jason Vieaux and Fred Hand do, and their lessons show it. Those barriers are coming down, bit by bit, at least in free countries.

  13. #162

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    Another thing, I noticed a few Classical and flamenco players here who seriously studied that music for a long time and achieved a virtuosity level, and decided to play jazz. While as a solo performers they sound quite impressive, in a band situation they... to put mildly not that good. Their timing and sense of form suck. Locking up with a rhythm section is not happening. But they think they are hot sh$t because, well, they are virtuosos with amazing technique. That's my experience, I dont know how common it is.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    The Classical guitar school of teaching is very rigid, at least in Russia. Everything that is not Classical is looked down upon, jazz, pop, rock, folk, whatever.

    And my Classical piano teacher made a point that anything remotely swing and that kind of articulation is very wrong. She knew I was a jazz gtr student, so she didnt really enforce much. But I could see how its taught. Same in Classical giitar.

    But I practiced Carcassi exercises for right hand a lot, on my own, just because it designed to help with technique.
    Its the same with calssical music teaching/teachers here in Hungary. They are (respect to the exceptions) all "classical nazis". Nothing is music except classical they say... Neverthless I have to say that we who try to play the guitar in the jazz scene, we also must know how to read the classical sheet properly. Thats why I practise this nowadays. The other side of the coin is that pop/blues/jazz players think that classical musicians are only workmans, skilled labourers who read the sight music but dont know anything about music at all (and the pop/rock etc guys "ofcz" cant read even 1 note from sheet, and dont know the freatboard etc etc...). Every side has its rights, but neither of these sides try to getting closer to each, to evolve a musical teaching method where these two sides are merged together. Every side has to learn the methods of the others side (not like in star wars lol), to be a really good player.
    Last edited by mrblues; 06-19-2019 at 04:26 AM.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrblues View Post
    Its the same with calssical music teaching/teachers here in Hungary. They are (respect to the exceptions) all "classical nazis". Nothing is music except classical they say... Neverthless I have to say that we who try to play the guitar in the jazz scene, we also must know how to read the classical sheet properly. Thats why I practise this nowadays. The other side of the coin is that pop/blues/jazz players think that classical musicians are only workmans, skilled labourers who read the sight music but dont know anything about music at all (and the pop/rock etc guys "ofcz" cant read even 1 note from sheet, and dont know the freatboard etc etc...). Every side has its rights, but neither of these sides try to getting closer to each, to evolve a musical teaching method where these two sides are merged together. Every side has to learn the methods of the others side (not like in star wars lol), to be a really good player.
    I agree with all you said. Personally, I love Classical guitar, I love playing it and I even teach it. I just think you got to approach it smart. I take what I like from it, some technical stuff, reading, and leave out the rest. But there is a lot of benefit for all kinds music if you study it.

  16. #165

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    This kid got it right!


  17. #166

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    I went down to the cross roads, fell down on my knees
    I went down to the cross roads, fell down on my knees
    Brought my class-e-kaall gee-tar, Se-go-vee-aaah don't bother meeeeee

    I never saw that movie... really gotta find it.

    I learned a couple of tings from the classical guitar world

    1. Segovia fingerings (classical guitarists don't even use 'em anymore)--I found them very useful for learning how to shift musically across the fretboard. All of my scale studies incorporate different shifting principles. I don't like positional playing all the time--but that's just me. Oh, check out Abel Carlevaro, if you really want to practice your shifts.

    2. Carcassi studies, yes they are great for technique.

    3. Bach Violin Partitas and Sonatas--gotta go back to them--fun fact, Howard Alden told me this is one way that he worked up his technique.

    4. Tone production and connecting every note UNLESS you want to play staccato--the guitar is a very staccato instrument, but it doesn't have to be chained to that as a dictum. I'm talking about playing legato with a plectrum, not legato playing ala Holdsworth (though his playing is pretty wild and beautiful). This is the one take-away I got from studying with James Chirillo. We didn't directly study rhythm guitar, but he was ALL about connecting the notes--even with the Van Eps studies we did--thank you James, but why couldn't you teach me a little Freddie Green--just a little?

    5. Dynamic control--listen to Bream, Segovia, and yes, John Williams (let's stop hating on John--classical guitar world)

    6. Thematic development--listen to Beethoven and Moe-zarht. I grew up listening to Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Dylan, Beatles, and John Coltrane with my dad--odd mix, huh? He would always walk around the apartment humming Beethoven or Mozart--so I think I got some of it in my ear.

  18. #167

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    Only the amateur, wannabe classical guitar world hates on John Williams. the REAL players have the utmost respect for him.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz View Post
    Only the amateur, wannabe classical guitar world hates on John Williams. the REAL players have the utmost respect for him.
    Sure thing. Same thing in jazz. Only wannabees hate guys like Martino, Gambale, Bireli and Grasso. You know guys with unreal chops. They invariably come up with the "no emotion" and "no soul" cliches. I wonder what psychological device is behind that.

    DB

  20. #169

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    It's funny how some people think it's OK to play out of time in jazz.

  21. #170

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive View Post
    This kid got it right!

    I was really into the blues back in the eighties and bought a strat and started learning the blues. I saw this movie and was blown away by the guitar playing in it- the Arlen Roth and Ry Cooder slide, but especially the head cutting battle at the end with Steve Vai.

    I wanted to play like that, so I bought a classical guitar and a telecaster and started taking classical guitar lessons to develop good technique, especially right hand technique. I ended up falling in love with classical guitar, too.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    It's funny how some people think it's OK to play out of time in jazz.
    or classical players who think its OK to play Bach out of time

  23. #172

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    Been on a classical guitar kick as I have to teach it atm. Mostly reading through the grades so I can be prepared to teach them. I always enjoy going through these phases. It’s very satisfying.

    I do find myself marvelling at a lot of the bad teaching of classical grades though from some of my students who have been with other teachers previously... I would hardly hold myself up as an exemplar of CG, wouldn’t give a recital, but I know how it works.

    and you get poor technique uncorrected, fingerings ignored or simplified, no attention paid to dynamics or interpretation.... it’s pretty bad. the people doing the teaching are jazz guitarists tbh.

    I’ve had a few classical lessons (probably more than jazz tbh) and I do think it makes you a better musician, maybe even more than a player. Paying close attention to sound and interpretation.... stuff that would also make you a better jazz player.

    There’s an argument that ever player should do a bit of classical. I’m more sympathetic to that atm. I think it did me a lot of good.

  24. #173

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    I started out with classical at age 12 with lessons from a good classical guitarist and teacher, I think it helped me enormously. My son did the same (he started at age 9 though, got a head start on me!).

    I do think a good classical teacher is necessary. Mine covered all aspects, e.g. tone production, posture, technique, interpretation, possible fingerings, it’s all stayed with me ever since, whatever style I subsequently got into.

    If I recall correctly, my son’s teacher also taught Laura Snowden (she lived near us at the time), and who is now quite a successful classical guitarist.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop View Post
    If I recall correctly, my son’s teacher also taught Laura Snowden (she lived near us at the time), who is now quite a successful classical guitarist.
    Shows how crap my memory is these days, I was discussing this with my son and it turns out he was actually taught for a while by Laura Snowden herself, in fact he was probably her first pupil. So a bit of a feather in his cap really.

    He was later taught by Laura’s teacher, so at least I got that bit right!

  26. #175

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    About the OP's original post:

    Jazz is something you ultimately teach yourself. At least more than classical. All you need to learn jazz is inspiration to pick up the instrument! If you had to pick between the two to study at university, I'd always pick classical.

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by S F View Post
    About the OP's original post:

    Jazz is something you ultimately teach yourself. At least more than classical. All you need to learn jazz is inspiration to pick up the instrument! If you had to pick between the two to study at university, I'd always pick classical.
    That is true. Paul Desmond said that writing was like jazz: it can be learned, but not taught. I never actually studied jazz guitar, I studied guitar technique and modern theory, jazz came from what I heard, and as I learned the guitar and the theory, the jazz got better.

  28. #177

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    Classical guitar is a bit of a ghetto, a relatively small repertoire compared to piano and no access to the top tier classical and romantic period composers. Always surprising how little interest many guitarists have in music written for other instruments. Hard to play Carcassi or Guiliani once you get to know the Beethoven sonatas (although Sor is actually quite good).

  29. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV View Post
    Classical guitar is a bit of a ghetto, a relatively small repertoire compared to piano and no access to the top tier classical and romantic period composers. Always surprising how little interest many guitarists have in music written for other instruments. Hard to play Carcassi or Guiliani once you get to know the Beethoven sonatas (although Sor is actually quite good).
    Very true. But I would say rather 'a sect' .. not quite ghetto.
    I studied classical for 7 years since 10... I had very good teacher who was very open-minded, and accomplished pianists ...I saw him perform 3rd Rakhmaninov concerto (yes he had to cut nsils)
    In my 2nd year I moved into symphonic and piano music and began to play piano..

  30. #179

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    "Classical guitar is a bit of a ghetto, a relatively small repertoire compared to piano and no access to the top tier classical and romantic period composers."
    BWV



    Hi, B,
    This, in my opinion, is is no longer true for those compositions that are capable of being transcribed for the Classical Guitar. Many piano compositions are simply not capable of being transcribed for the guitar since the range of piano is so different from the guitar. However, there is a wealth of compositions ,from all eras, that have been transcribed successfully and it would take a serious musician several lifetimes to even scratch the surface of this material. And, although some movements in a Classical Symphony have the ability to be transcribed, the differences between instruments is too great to successfully transcribe the entire work in most cases. Good playing . . . Marinero

  31. #180

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    Well.... one problem the modern guitar has is that the original plucked instruments of 17th, 18th century etc are becoming more common. I think a lot of working classical guitarists double on theorbo and so on.

    A lot of the baroque repertoire just sounds better on baroque guitar or lute for instance. After hearing this, for instance, I don't want ever again to hear it on modern guitar. So much more dynamic, and the campanelas and so on really pop. And as a lot of those pieces are simple lightweight dance piece as opposed to for instance, Bach, it needs that vibe...



    Transcription is a thing... would the music work better? Sometimes it can work in a new way... The Arpeggione sonata is an example, I suppose.

    There's also the problem that no one really wants to write fort the guitar. It's a pain. Bream had to agitate for years and often the composers in question never wanted to go near the thing again.

    So you need people who are good composers and guitarists... Or players who are advocates for the instrument too (like Bream and Segovia of course) and willing to do what it takes to build repetoire for it all the time.

    OTOH it does mean a classic guitarist has to be more creative and active as an artist than a pianist, perhaps. This seems to be the case.

  32. #181

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    This is not a million miles away from the situation with jazz guitar of course. It's really a small ghetto, although fusion made the guitar trendy, and Pat and Kurt were influential in the recent history.

    Today I think most young bands would prefer a fusion/rock guitar player who can play jazz than an archtop player...

  33. #182

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    Hi, C,
    When one considers construction, tonewoods, design, choice of strings, and size, the Classical Guitar is a rich and varied instrument. Many artists seek to replicate the sound of the 19th century, for example, by playing Romantic style guitars. And, there is a difference. One of our members, Rob MacKillop, I believe, has focused much energy on these instruments. I have toyed with the idea of an original period instrument for my Romantic era repertoire but, according to feedback from many owners, they are expensive, quirky, and require constant maintenance/care. And, I have 3 luthier-built professional instruments that have wonderful voices and solid construction. So, maybe someday. Good playing . . . Marinero

  34. #183

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    There's also the problem that no one really wants to write fort the guitar. It's a pain. Bream had to agitate for years and often the composers in question never wanted to go near the thing again.
    It often depends on some circumstance... my friend - Boris Yoffe - to me probably greatest composer living... never liked classical guitar and never wrote anything for it.. but once he was approached by Augustin Wiedemann who was deeply impressed by his quartets. And Wiedemann ordered some music - at the begining Boris declined it but they kept communicating and finally he suddenly (it always happened like that) brought a few pieces.
    It is interesting that Boris does not know guitar and did not study it before writing (except maybe general idea of range) but everything fit well but Augustin is a real master.
    At the end this collaboration brought to life beautiful album of original music "Symphony' composed of solo guitar pieces and ensembles of guitar with different instruments and voice... you never know.

  35. #184

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Been on a classical guitar kick as I have to teach it atm. Mostly reading through the grades so I can be prepared to teach them. I always enjoy going through these phases. It’s very satisfying.

    I do find myself marvelling at a lot of the bad teaching of classical grades though from some of my students who have been with other teachers previously... I would hardly hold myself up as an exemplar of CG, wouldn’t give a recital, but I know how it works.

    and you get poor technique uncorrected, fingerings ignored or simplified, no attention paid to dynamics or interpretation.... it’s pretty bad. the people doing the teaching are jazz guitarists tbh.

    I’ve had a few classical lessons (probably more than jazz tbh) and I do think it makes you a better musician, maybe even more than a player. Paying close attention to sound and interpretation.... stuff that would also make you a better jazz player.

    There’s an argument that ever player should do a bit of classical. I’m more sympathetic to that atm. I think it did me a lot of good.

    I was always amazed at the way my CG teacher would play the most difficult lines, and his LH seemed like it barely moved. This might have something to do with exercises which used "Preparing",i.e. descending chromatic scale exercises that started with the pinky, where fingers 1, 2 and 3 would already be down, and it would just be a matter of picking up a finger to play a note (one motion) rather than picking up a finger and placing down a finger (two motions). I think we used the Aaron Shearer Method book for this. Are there any other exercises that are used in the standard literature for "Preparing"?

  36. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    I was always amazed at the way my CG teacher would play the most difficult lines, and his LH seemed like it barely moved. This might have something to do with exercises which used "Preparing",i.e. descending chromatic scale exercises that started with the pinky, where fingers 1, 2 and 3 would already be down, and it would just be a matter of picking up a finger to play a note (one motion) rather than picking up a finger and placing down a finger (two motions). I think we used the Aaron Shearer Method book for this. Are there any other exercises that are used in the standard literature for "Preparing"?
    Pujol's excercises are very good and in different variations they seem to migrate through different methods and teachers.
    His slur excersises are actually not for slurs but for the genral hand physiology.

    But imho it worls properly only when it is directed by a good teacher.

    Most of the classical guitar technique is based on efficiency and stability.

    the thing is jazz gutarists mostly play their own stuff - they can afford it - they can elaborate what is convinient for them (how to build a line of make a pause etc)and jazz is less demanding to the subtle nuances. Classical musicians must be able to perform things that may be naturally not that convinient for them... and clasical music is demanding about dynamics and nuances control (how many jazz guitarists use dynamics at all?)... that is why they need - I would say - a higher discipline of performance.

  37. #186

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    "Classical guitar is a bit of a ghetto, a relatively small repertoire compared to piano and no access to the top tier classical and romantic period composers."
    BWV



    Hi, B,
    This, in my opinion, is is no longer true for those compositions that are capable of being transcribed for the Classical Guitar. Many piano compositions are simply not capable of being transcribed for the guitar since the range of piano is so different from the guitar. However, there is a wealth of compositions ,from all eras, that have been transcribed successfully and it would take a serious musician several lifetimes to even scratch the surface of this material. And, although some movements in a Classical Symphony have the ability to be transcribed, the differences between instruments is too great to successfully transcribe the entire work in most cases. Good playing . . . Marinero
    think you overstate the depth of the repertoire with the ‘several lifetimes’. Beethoven wrote 32 piano sonatas, then you have all the other 19th century repertoire. Nothing for the guitar, including transcriptions, approaches this depth of quality material. Classical guitarists have scrounge for material from nearly every forgotten 19th century guitarist composer. In the meantime they too often ignore the great contemporary repertoire by real heavyweights like Carter, Henze, Takemitsu etc.

  38. #187

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    I think I'd prefer a title of classical and jazz guitar are good together...why vs.?

  39. #188

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    Dear OP,

    Greetings from 12 years in the future, where the answer is "it doesn't matter, because nobody has gigs due to a thing called coronavirus"

    :-)

  40. #189

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Pujol's excercises are very good and in different variations they seem to migrate through different methods and teachers.
    His slur excersises are actually not for slurs but for the genral hand physiology.

    But imho it worls properly only when it is directed by a good teacher.

    Most of the classical guitar technique is based on efficiency and stability.

    the thing is jazz gutarists mostly play their own stuff - they can afford it - they can elaborate what is convinient for them (how to build a line of make a pause etc)and jazz is less demanding to the subtle nuances. Classical musicians must be able to perform things that may be naturally not that convinient for them... and clasical music is demanding about dynamics and nuances control (how many jazz guitarists use dynamics at all?)... that is why they need - I would say - a higher discipline of performance.
    Out of Plectrum guitarists, I'd say Johnny Smith is the guitarist that most classical guitarists admire. Have you checked him out?

  41. #190

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim View Post
    Out of Plectrum guitarists, I'd say Johnny Smith is the guitarist that most classical guitarists admire. Have you checked him out?
    I know Johnny Smith of course.

  42. #191

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Pujol's excercises are very good and in different variations they seem to migrate through different methods and teachers.
    His slur excersises are actually not for slurs but for the genral hand physiology.

    But imho it worls properly only when it is directed by a good teacher.

    Most of the classical guitar technique is based on efficiency and stability.

    the thing is jazz gutarists mostly play their own stuff - they can afford it - they can elaborate what is convinient for them (how to build a line of make a pause etc)and jazz is less demanding to the subtle nuances. Classical musicians must be able to perform things that may be naturally not that convinient for them... and clasical music is demanding about dynamics and nuances control (how many jazz guitarists use dynamics at all?)... that is why they need - I would say - a higher discipline of performance.
    TBF you do practice other people’s music to a large extent in jazz. If you aren’t doing this often with jazz then you are probably not really practicing.

    To play bop well for instance you need to be able to play things that really don’t sit naturally.

    The challenges are different to playing some difficult polyphonic music, but they are very real. For instance getting 26-2 up to speed on an acoustic guitar has taken me quite a while... and that’s 32 bars of music...

    I spend quite a bit of my practice time working on other people’s stuff. My own stuff I can already play so that doesn’t need work so much.

    one reason why I like acoustic is dynamics actually

    there are phrasing nuances in jazz but they are fundamentally different? I think ironically the switch to a more notation based pedagogy has made us less aware of this stuff, while classical has always been about breathing life into the score...

  43. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    TBF you do practice other people’s music to a large extent in jazz. If you aren’t doing this often with jazz then you are probably not really practicing.

    To play bop well for instance you need to be able to play things that really don’t sit naturally.

    The challenges are different to playing some difficult polyphonic music, but they are very real. For instance getting 26-2 up to speed on an acoustic guitar has taken me quite a while... and that’s 32 bars of music...

    I spend quite a bit of my practice time working on other people’s stuff. My own stuff I can already play so that doesn’t need work so much.

    one reason why I like acoustic is dynamics actually

    there are phrasing nuances in jazz but they are fundamentally different? I think ironically the switch to a more notation based pedagogy has made us less aware of this stuff, while classical has always been about breathing life into the score...
    yeh.. I thoght about bop when I was writing that... and I myself know that problem of getting bop heads to uptempo with nice and natural phrasing..

    But - in some sense - there is a way to avoid it in jazz if you really want to))) Of course if your challenge is to be verstile session player you have to do everything (which is not always good)... but if you are more in to your thing ... Frisell or Jim Hall - they play bop heads in quite interesting manner really... they keep it up to proper tempo but they do not seem to try to articulate it in virtuoso style.. they switch some kind of 'humming'...

    I do not say that jazz players do not have to practice...

    You know I have a hobby: early traverso flutes... and with flutes it is seen quite clearly because how they are made reflects the approach to performance.
    If you take Irish flute (which is basically just a bit modified early classical wooden flute with a few keys) and compare it with hiagh baroque flutes (they are basically the same but just have one key)... you will see how much easier Irsich flute is .. easier to articulate, to play high notes, to pronounce ' typical problematic notes' to play fast, to play loud etc.
    But eventually you will notice that some baroque Rottenburgh or Buffardin models give such sweet and subtle nuances of colour, tone, dynamics, articulatio that you can never get from the Irish flute...

    And that reflexes the performer's metality to a great deal..



    With guitar it is the same... at one point I actually came to conclusion that classical guitar is still generally folk instruments (yes there are great classical players I admire -- though... not so many). It has always been.. (even baroquw guitar at its prime -- yes there was Gurrau but it is an exception).. in 19th century ti was a salon instrument mostly,,, and 20 it began a fight to be one of the academic instruments (I still think Segovia created a world of his own just for himself).

    And other guitars are just other instruments: American steel string guitar, or manouche or rock guitar, or jazz archtop guitar.. they all belong to the style very much. It does not mean you cannot use them in other styles but to establish it there - the time is needed... and the musical culture.
    Jazz achieved a level in my opinion where it - as a style - can consume any instrument and raise it to the level of style sophisitcation.

    Same thing happened to violin many many years ago --