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I like it... though the Tele sound makes it a bit muddy and it is more difficult to hear the harmonic movement clearly.
Originally Posted by christianm77
If you wish I send to you a couple of excercises my friend made for me whne I practiced it on lute... it is interesting because actually they are like chess tasks: they have one or more solutions but still very limited quantity...
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03-31-2021 04:46 AM
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By the way a could idea could taking a bass part (figuered or not) from some baroque piece - can be anyone: Bach, Handel, Telemann, Corelli, Benedetto Marcello, Vivaldi, Locatelli...
and just cover the melodic voice(s) and try to play from bass and then compare)))
That makes you in some sense communicatate directly with artistic decisions of the composers.
Bendetto Marcello's concerti grossi and recorder (Flute) sonatas are relatively simple but give a good space for interesting solution.
Vivaldi's bass maybe too schematic often considering his style.
Handel and Telemann are fine but can be a bit more complicated.
Bach could be great experience... but Bach jimself was know to play very elaborated and complex continuo parts (quite the opposite to what today's players often do)
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Maybe a spot too much reverb on that one haha. Originally Posted by Jonah
I'm up for having a go at those lute exercises. Please send through.
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Already starting to do that. Some Bach pieces obviously a lot more complicated than others. Not sure if you saw the video Rob posted above, which demonstrates exactly that. The guitarist in it takes a Bach prelude and improvises an air on it. Originally Posted by Jonah
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That was lovely. Was there any reverb on your amp? B/c I was hearing a definite (but tasteful) sense of "pipe organ in massive stone and glass space"* aura. Or is this yet more proof of the magical qualities of the Telecaster, or are you simply a master of both the idiom and the instrument? Originally Posted by christianm77
Seriously, that was beautiful. Thank you.
* As a youth I spent every Sunday listening to a full-size pipe organ, well played, accompanied by a substantial choir, not too shabby. I know a little about reverberation.**
** It got a little shabbier when I joined the Bassos.**
** My Old Man and my brother made up for my presence, mostly.
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No talent here; the LogicPro X ‘Silververb’ plug in
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Music is just sounds Originally Posted by Jonah
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Nice, could be any number of short baroque guitar pieces Originally Posted by christianm77
probably unfair of me to quibble, but could really use some ornamentation
also you know notes inegales? IMO mid-tempo baroque pieces should hardly ever be played with straight 8ths
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Well considering your comprehensive remark I think the best expected should be 'no, it is not' Originally Posted by BWV
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Fine, then tell us what is and what is not music, then everyone can play the game of finding a counterexample that violates any rule you lay down Originally Posted by Jonah
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No, I won't. If you really wanted to know what I think you could have simply asked. Originally Posted by BWV
I am not that much in those games so my favourite options 'ignore' and 'unsubscribe' always help me.
Best regards
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Well yeah.... at the moment, all of that stuff is like an extra layer to be painted on the bare stone of the basic realisation. Originally Posted by BWV
(I suppose I could even write things out and give them to good ‘painters’, baroque performance experts if they were up for it... )
Ornamentation and note inegales is like another layer of improvisation too, but quite different in nature.
There’s also the matter of diminutions, which are another layer of complexity, but lead to true polyphonic realisations ala fugue.... (as I write I have to say I am massively reminded of the process outlined in Hal Galper’s Forward Motion.)
One thing at a time...
It would be a lot more stylish, but: I haven't worked on that in written pieces of baroque music, so.... I would be very loathe to describe myself as any sort of classical guitarist. Plonk some Bach in front of me and I’ll play the notes, at best. Which is funny really!
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I agree that music isn’t just sounds. There’s a lot more too it. That’s like saying a painting is just colours.
Literally it is true, but also it tells you very little. Sounds organised with intention perhaps. But again that tells you little.
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So, not sure if anyone is terribly interested in this thread lol, but I've continued working on the Fenaroli partimenti. It's bloody difficult, and mostly these recordings represent more composition than improvisation. But I've learned a lot.
One thing is how busy the basslines are, and this is starting to put me off this stuff a little bit, because it's pushing me right out to the verge of my limited classical chops to play rapid scales in thirds and tenths, and also it seems to cut down the options for the sorts of things that are natural on guitar (either jazz or classical).
Really, it seems like the partimenti basses are designed to prepare keyboardists for more contrapuntal improvisation (eventually fugues) and this doesn't really play to the strengths of the guitar unless you are like a super hench classical guitar chad monster who has pumped all the nylon there is to pump.
so the question is - become better classical guitarist, or try some different approaches? And what do I want from this as a jazz player? Maybe a bit of both?
OTOH, I should probably knuckle down and get some two part inventions under my fingers on electric (Kreisberg, Heckselman etc have done this along with every other jazz guitarist apart from me it seems haha); this obviously works hybrid picking and helps develop more of a Jimmy Wyble-ish independence (I'd play the Wyble etudes if I liked the way they sounded a bit more.)
I'll be focussing on preludes for a little bit, then maybe exploring some other simple forms. Anyway here's a chart
Original Fenaroli basses (book 1) are here
http://partimenti.org/partimenti/col...roli_book1.pdf
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I think the key thing you said, Christian, is that it doesn’t feel natural to the guitar. As I mentioned a couple days ago on another post, baroque lute players would have failed to do what you are doing. Even Weiss at his most virtuosic never wrote anything unnatural to the lute.
I also detect a somewhat macho undercurrent to much of this partimenti guitar culture which has blighted classical guitar arranging - “See how many notes I can fit in!” - that again was not part of the lute or theorbo culture.
On the other hand, Pasqual Grasso is bringing in advanced classical-guitar technique into jazz, so if that’s your thing then some of what you are doing might be of use to you.
At the end of the day, the guitar is not a keyboard, and even at its most extreme, guitar technique cannot compare with keyboard technique. For me it’s a cultural thing: the culture of the best (subjective, I know) guitar and lute music is different to the keyboard culture. But, as they say, your mileage may vary. Good luck with it all, wherever it takes you!
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Otoh lute players didn’t have access to Fender Teles :-)
Part of this is an experiment to see how much I can play keyboard partimenti on a modern electric guitar, and see if it’s worth getting partimento lessons. while it’s definitely easier than on a classical guitar, I’m starting to hunger for some low hanging fruit haha
Meanwhile when I try this stuff at the piano with my non existent piano skills, I can start to make a simple realisation. It’s just infinitely more natural to that instrument.
TBH when the bass part is already in running eighth notes it forces you into playing lots of notes. It’s not terribly guitaristic maybe; I don’t think I would ever improvise such a busy bassline.
I think at the early stage it’s a bit different in any case - most of the info is in the bass part and as you move to the later books you are given more room to invent/mess it up. I may never get that far though haha.
I’ve mostly been listening to keyboard realisations and adapting to guitar. The classical guitar realisations I have heard are based around early C19 guitar music, which is less interesting to me. (Scholarship suggests that where partimento was used for plucked strings, considerable leeway was taken with the octaves of the bass notes etc.)
Re the lute; I’ve found both Kellner and Weiss to be very useful and obviously share some of Bach’s harmonic world if not his ‘statistical density.’ I could imagine coming up with something of the approach Kellner’s Fantasia as an improvisation… and then of course there are the ground basses. Kellner’s chaconne is both easy to play on guitar and seems a good model for improv.
So I’m curious; are there any original lute oriented improv materials? I actually first heard about the Rule of the Octave through the lute? Obviously accompaniment from a bass was a big part of the gig, but is there anything about improvising peices?Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-23-2021 at 04:26 AM.
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Nice. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
So, not sure if anyone is terribly interested in this thread lol, but I've continued working on the Fenaroli partimenti. It's bloody difficult, and mostly these recordings represent more composition than improvisation. But I've learned a lot.
One thing is how busy the basslines are, and this is starting to put me off this stuff a little bit, because it's pushing me right out to the verge of my limited classical chops to play rapid scales in thirds and tenths, and also it seems to cut down the options for the sorts of things that are natural on guitar (either jazz or classical).
Really, it seems like the partimenti basses are designed to prepare keyboardists for more contrapuntal improvisation (eventually fugues) and this doesn't really play to the strengths of the guitar unless you are like a super hench classical guitar chad monster who has pumped all the nylon there is to pump.
so the question is - become better classical guitarist, or try some different approaches? And what do I want from this as a jazz player? Maybe a bit of both?
OTOH, I should probably knuckle down and get some two part inventions under my fingers on electric (Kreisberg, Heckselman etc have done this along with every other jazz guitarist apart from me it seems haha); this obviously works hybrid picking and helps develop more of a Jimmy Wyble-ish independence (I'd play the Wyble etudes if I liked the way they sounded a bit more.)
I'll be focussing on preludes for a little bit, then maybe exploring some other simple forms. Anyway here's a chart
Original Fenaroli basses (book 1) are here
http://partimenti.org/partimenti/col...roli_book1.pdf
And thanks for the book... I will dare to try it on my liuto attiorbato today... I am noe all busy with that stuf preparing solo recital with high baroque late autumn - and I use music I learn for improvizing too.
I know you mentioned that we probably have dfferent purpose... but - do not take it as criticism - when you play I feel it sounds more like excercise patterns without much integral connection. I mean it does not woek as music at the end of it all...
(Actually I myself probably have this issue too...)
I think actually it makes sense to do it slower with more irregularity in melodic solutions.. (not sure if I am the one to give advice though)
I think I already said that but I never gave a link?
I play these sonatas directly from the score.. this is beautiful music... and it is very transparent in concern of bass/melody relation.
And it is very musical in concern of meanings, form, semantics.
It sort of teaches the assimetry of the phrase and harmonic changes that makes it a vivid character
https://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks...onatas_Op2.pdf
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I feel the oppsite actually) when the bass line is busy I hear sort of a sweet traverso note soaring above it)when the bass part is already in running eighth notes it forces you into playing lots of notes.
(But of course arpegiated texture in 16s would be common too)
Also when there are busy bass lines and I play on lute I usually transpose them into middle register because there are more flexible and more audible there...
Check what Massimo Lonardi does in this brilliant recording.
This is 2nd sonata in the facsimile I gave you link to above. He plays continuo alone hear and you can hear that mostly all the melodic bass lines he plays an ocatve higher than it is written.
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Not that I know of... I remember there was a book of partimenti for baroque guitar by the violinist and guitarist.. I can't remeber the name now...So I’m curious; are there any original lute oriented improv materials? I actually first heard about the Rule of the Octave through the lute? Obviously accompaniment was a big part of the gig, but is there anything about improvising peices?
I do not think it was needed actually. They studied the instrument early in the years and improvizing was natural part of their musical life.
I think it is the same as with jazz... one should have non-musical ideas to be an interesting improvizor.
Great baroque composers are not made by their technical compozitional skills but by the contents they were able to express with it.
In today HIP education the technique of it is often overestimated imho...
they study treatisies (mostly written for amateurs), copypaste the rules and look for 'magic recipe' to improvize...
(Today for example the trend is renaissance improvization - derived from vocal ensemble iprovizarion, when the tenor starts and other voices improvize counterpoints.
Instrumentalists use a lot a book of Tomas de Maria 'Art of fantasy' which to me leads to oversimplifying the musical contentc because the book seems to be obviously written for amateurs... byt the way Diego Pisador was an amateur and his vihuela fanatasias seem to be constructed by this book --- and not for the better really)
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I was listening back to those videos when I uploaded and came to the exactly same conclusion. Whereas I feel my chaconne was much more expressive. Originally Posted by Jonah
so this brings me tangentially to another thought, which is that I might want to split up these realisations between different instruments; guitar duo would probably change the way I approach the realisation.I mean part of the reason it sounds like an exercise is that it is an exercise, of course. And I get impatient to get making music.
I think actually it makes sense to do it slower with more irregularity in melodic solutions.. (not sure if I am the one to give advice though)
I think I already said that but I never gave a link?
I play these sonatas directly from the score.. this is beautiful music... and it is very transparent in concern of bass/melody relation.
And it is very musical in concern of meanings, form, semantics.
It sort of teaches the assimetry of the phrase and harmonic changes that makes it a vivid character
https://ks4.imslp.info/files/imglnks...onatas_Op2.pdf
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I also promised some time ago the excersises that my friend made for me.
So here we go
I translated the titles. These are a few simplest. there are some for extended ones where you basically have to compose a whole piece.
What I like about it that they seem to give some tips (different in different excercises) - they are not just bass, they somehow guide (in a bit hidden form) into the direction of cretive writing.
On the other hand they have very vague instruction relying on your personal resposibility and creativity.
On first glance when you read the guideline... it may seem difficult but when you begin to do it you understand that actually there are not so many ways to realize as suggested.
1. Strictly alternate chords and melodic lines (on every next bass it should be either chord or melodic voice)
2. Praeludium. Find realtively moderate, supportive (spacious, non-interruptive) for this bass
3. Play according to the figuered bass as correctly and precisely as possible
4. Triosaonate. Iprovize or compose 1-2 voices over the bass, using chords occasionally.
5. Allemande. Find appropriate chords, compose continuation.
6. Sarabande. Find appropriate chords in the 2nd half and add melodic lines occasionally
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I also thought that melodic thinking is important... I mean thinking in more spacious (and lesse rythmically dependant on bass) lines... which are more connected with the overall form...
Partimenti exmples i saw on youtube often seem too much concentrated on the moment they are at now and their melodic lines are often short and coincide with bass...
Sort of 'note against the note' thinking - not litterary but generally so.
i think I come again to the masters music... you really lear those things in a natural way when you listen and play more of that music
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Played with a tad more verve, pathos etc, I would quite enjoy this. Just some random feedback. Originally Posted by christianm77
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"At the end of the day, the guitar is not a keyboard, and even at its most extreme, guitar technique cannot compare with keyboard technique." RobMacKillop
Yes.
Play live . . . Marinero
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See above. Hopefully I’ll loosen up a bit as it gets more natural, but I’m not sure if partimento is ever going to be easy for me… it feels quite academic and exercise-y at the moment, but that’s practice for you . Originally Posted by Peter C
I can’t remember if you said if you’d tried this type of thing?
Enjoying your sound cloud clips btw. I’d like to hear those compositions studio recorded at some point.Last edited by Christian Miller; 07-23-2021 at 02:23 PM.
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