How to tell a good classical guitar?

[richb2]

I don't understand what you are getting at.

[richb2]

Classical guitars are not violins... the most expesive one I saw was about EUR 20000 and it was owned by world class concert guitarist and made of some special magic woods that awere collected by virgins on the full moon night in Amazonia...

For classicals... with usd 3000 is big money...
I would go for completely hand-made instrument by luthier - but I would not order - but rather to try to find a ready one...


I had to choose classical guitars many times from various price levels... I always rely only on actual my feel with actual instrument I can try...

I saw many usd 600-700 classical guitars (even mayve usd 300) that were no worse than usd 1500 guitar...

Congratulations. You can clearly can tell the good from the bad. I don't have that skill (or at least don't think I do). All power to you.

[targuit]

Ron - Hope you read this and can help clarify an issue for me, as I trust your experience and judgement. I was rereading the thread and your post regarding using your Godin 'classical' nylon string with the Zoom A2 processor and the Bose A1 PA. Sounds like you are very satisfied with the resulting sound.

That is exactly what I would like to do. Use a classical with pre-amp through the Bose or similar PA system which would also be great for vocals which are important to me. So you essentially run your classical through the Zoom and into the PA, correct?

Now the second question is this. Can you also achieve a good sound running an electric Archtop guitar through the same or similar processor into the Bose, bypassing the use of a separate guitar amp? I ask because I have been warned that this set up does not work well with an electric archtop, resulting in tinny or poor tone. As you can tell, I'm trying to figure out how to use the Bose type PA as the unique amplifier without lugging a separate tube or solid state amp around.

Also, and this might hopefully pertain to Rich's OP, the other day I was in a GC and was playing a Cordoba cedar top classical with pre-amp and cutaway ($400 street) through an Acoustic 40 watt solid state portable amp that also has a channel for phantom power use with a LD condenser or with a dynamic vocal mic. I did not have the time to hear the vocal channel but the acoustic classical guitar sounded quite good through the Acoustic. Not sure about the volume capability but not too bad otherwise. Effects as well, EQ, etc.

[Encinitastubes]

Late to the party here, but anybody else thing what makes a good classical guitar and what makes a good nylon string for jazz playing are very different things?

I'm completely satisfied with my Godin Grand Concert. And it's pretty much standard classical neck dimensions, and it has the best "avoustic" pickup system I've ever used.

This particular model also has a decent amount of unplugged volume for practice.

I agree with this. I have two Oribes. A redwood topped/Brazilian back and sides one that he made and a spruce topped/Indian back and sides Pro-A, which was a model for which the back and sides were made in Japan and the top and finishing were done by Jose Oribe. The redwood is louder, much more resonant, and generally much bigger than the spruce. However, when you get into complex jazz chords, the articulation in the spruce is much better; there is just too much information going on with the redwood for a lot of jazz.

I have found that there is a great variety within the same model by the same builder, even using the same woods. I would definitely try out the guitar you are interested in. I would also research scale length. 650 seems to be the most popular. In Segovia's time, 664 was where it was at. You should also research the top, cedar and spruce are the most popular, but redwood had its day and there are composites that have become quite popular.

Also, I hate to say it, but if you are going to plug in, the analysis is completely different. In my mind, Kirk Sand is the gold standard, but Takamine and Godin sound really great. I think you lose the high-endedness of a fine instrument when you introduce electricity. Good luck!

[targuit]

Rich, I don't know what your requirements are as to amp volume or the acoustic tone of the guitar, but personally I would not want to bring an expensive refined classical guitar to a gig where there are all manner of bad things that could happen. Good clean tone out of an amplified classical guitar is very important to me as well as some type of vocal channel or PA for vox that sounds good, but as regards the guitar, I think the Cordoba is pretty adequate for most venues.

[Jabberwocky]

I don't understand what you are getting at.

They are String Ties for an alternative way of tying the strings to the tie-block. Supposedly confers the benefits of a 12-hole tie-block (better string break angle over the saddle) but I think they merely look neat.

[Perdido]

I know that Romero plays in huge halls with his soloist and doesn't seem to have the feedback problem. I just don't want to make a fatal mistake.

Actually, for the past several years, Romero Lubambo has been playing one of two guitars built by my good friend and local luthier Richard Prenkert (who Jabberwocky mentioned in an earlier post in this thread). Richard uses the Barbera transducer system (saddle pickup) in his guitars, as he feels they're the only onboard pickup he's ever heard that faithfully reproduces the sound of his guitars. Romero uses a preamp between the pickup and the amplifier, but I've played Richard's guitars with the Barbera pickup and it does a terrific job. The bad news is that Richard's guitars sell for six grand plus. (The good news, at least for me, is that I get to "test drive" all of his guitars.)

[lammie200]

They are String Ties for an alternative way of tying the strings to the tie-block. Supposedly confers the benefits of a 12-hole tie-block (better string break angle over the saddle) but I think they merely look neat.

I use them. Great product IMHO. The break angle is better, they make restringing much easier, and they prevent the tendency to scratch the top with string ends. I don't mind how they look either.

[richb2]

Well I went to see Prisloe today and ended up buying a tp-30 with a spruce top. I tried out a tp-20 but it just seemed flimsy to me. I then tried out 3 different tp-30s for an hour or so. 2 of them had cedar tops. They were nice but I felt the spruce was more balanced while sounding clearer. On the pickup thing I will wait a little while before getting a pickup installed. Tom will set up the guitar and I will pick it up next week.

Thanks to all for your help.

[Jabberwocky]

Take your time with the pickup, richb2. There are so many choices out there. You gotta take into consideration your amplification too.

Since your posting, I have been researching it myself. There is the RMC, the Graphtech, the D-Tar, the LR Baggs, Pickup of the World, Kremona NG-1, Barbera Soloist, Fishman, Schertler, AKC 411, DPA4099, AMT, Bartlett,...I probably overlooked some others.

A DPA4099/Schertler Dyn G is cheaper when you buy it from Thomann.de . The DPA4099 is about $400 vs. $600 bought domestically.DPA d:vote 4099 Guitar - Thomann UK

[Encinitastubes]

Back when I amplified acoustics, I had good luck with K&K systems.

[richb2]

Well, I bought the Pavan TP-30 and I am having a Soloist pickup put into it. I play 90% of the time unamplified for my own satisfaction so it made sense to get a good sounding acoustic guitar.

[fole]

I was told by one of Segovia's guitar builder's sons that the best were German.

Apparently his favourite guitar was a Hermann Hauser guitar built in the 1930s (1937?). He tried several Hausers before that one, but that was special. Hermann Hauser was, of course, German. His son, Hermann II also built great guitars. They are based mainly on the Torres designs of the late 19th century, with improvements at least suggested by Segovia.

I think it is true to say that although some truly magnificent classical guitars are built in the Orient, the greatest ones come from Europe particularly Spain, France, Germany and some good English ones too.

It seems to me, from what I have read on guitar forums, that many American players prefer "crossover" guitars when looking to add some nylon to their armoury, and thus American builders give them what they want obviously. And by that I am not saying American luthiers don't build good classical guitars, they do, it's just that the techniques for playing classical guitar are so far removed from what I would call the traditional US guitar, ie steel strung, that players want something they can adapt to rather than learning what ammounts to a different instrument.

[richb2]

Good point. I was thinking today that maybe I made the wrong decision to go with a "standard" classical guitar since I really play jazz. I just wanted to make sure that it was ok when I am playing in the backyard by myself. Possibly irrational?

[fole]

Good point. I was thinking today that maybe I made the wrong decision to go with a "standard" classical guitar since I really play jazz. I just wanted to make sure that it was ok when I am playing in the backyard by myself. Possibly irrational?

I don't think that is irrational, but you may find the transition easier with a crossover instrument. Having said that, I've only read about crossovers, never played one.I use a classical guitar for the nylon stuff and steel strings for everything else.

Of course Charlie Byrd and Laurindo Almeida were both successful in the jazz idiom using classical guitars. but I remember being told, when I was starting out in the '60s, not to "waste my time" with a classical guitar for jazz. I think the major problem in those days was being heard. Things are different now, especially with crossovers. But I still like the pure sound of the classical guitar, it can't be beaten in my opinion.

Good luck with your quest.

[richb2]

I got the new Pavan back from guitar repair guy who put in a Soloist pickup. I am super happy with the results. It plays really well. I haven't played it with the band yet but I am looking forward to be feedback free. Here it is. It is a TP-30 with a Spruce top. I played as bunch with ceder tops but thought that the Spruce was brighter.

[Jabberwocky]

Super nice. What would complete the package are string tieblocks for a better string break angle:

https://www.stringsbymail.com/guitar...ng-tools-1182/ .

[pima1234]

I was considering these myself, actually. They work well, I assume?

Super nice. What would complete the package are string tieblocks for a better string break angle:

https://www.stringsbymail.com/guitar...ng-tools-1182/ .

[pima1234]

How do you like the Soloist system? Was the install intrusive at all?

Do you know, was it difficult to install?

I have contacted them. Thank you for posting this. I hadn't heard of them prior.

I got the new Pavan back from guitar repair guy who put in a Soloist pickup. I am super happy with the results. It plays really well. I haven't played it with the band yet but I am looking forward to be feedback free. Here it is. It is a TP-30 with a Spruce top. I played as bunch with ceder tops but thought that the Spruce was brighter.

[pima1234]

As a long time classical guitarist, I can chime in a bit.

First, really grateful to have been pointed toward that Soloist pickup system. That will replace a Shadow pickup on my custom concert classical.

That guitar was built for me by luthier William Henderson out of the Baltimore area back in 2002. It's been my baby. I never thought I would ever dig into it of course, but for outdoor gigs, I need something other than a mic, and the Shadow just doesn't really cut it.

I recently started talking with a luthier who is active on the Delcamp forum. I picked up an old stock (2 years) model for a great price, and am very pleased. Totally different guitar from my hand made. Bigger, first of all, but still completely comfortable with minimal transition phase. It has a truly Spanish sound. My Henderson is definitely a modern sound, with a double top and cold-molded back. But, what has blown me away is the volume! My goodness. What a surprising difference. So, that will be my concert guitar (which is nuts considering the good price I paid for it) after having used the Henderson for a very long time. Not sure which guitar I would use for recording, as they are both great.

So, what do I look for in a nice guitar? Well, it's still highly subjective, in my opinion. As has been mentioned here, I did have a need for a crossover. I found a Godin Multiac Nylon Duet Ambience and am satisfied, given my limited need for it. That guitar (VERY reluctantly) replaced a nice Soloway Gosling with fingerstyle spacing (a glorious guitar). In a concert guitar, I want something comfortable to play for extended periods. My Henderson has some ergonomic shaping, included rounded body edges. It absolutely makes a difference! Volume, projection, sustain, and bloom are all important for different, but related reasons. Timber/tone (the range an instrument possesses) are again subject to personal taste, and can be altered with using different strings to some extent, but are still important factors. This newer guitar has greater clarity, but an overall brighter sound. It is more balanced. I do still love the sound of my Henderson though, so I don't see selling it. Craftsmanship is very important. The craftsmanship on my Henderson is very good. It's a stunning guitar, and I still remember being blown away by it upon receipt. There are a few things I could be picky about if I actually cared (but I also received a nice discount when I purchased it, thanks to the builder's generosity toward those who actually work as performers and/or instructors). The finish work on this new guitar is by no means bad, at all. It's just not a fancy guitar. Attractive, but nothing overtly visually spectacular.

This is harder than I thought, but the best thing I could do is make a long, rambling video showcasing both... That probably won't happen. lol

Feel free to PM me if you'd like.

[Jabberwocky]

I was considering these myself, actually. They work well, I assume?

Yes, they do although looks are a matter of taste. They make stringing much easier. I don't know about the supposed benefits of increased string break angle over the saddle but they are supposed to mimick a 12-hole tie block.

[richb2]

Well, tying those knots are a pain the a.s. But I am not sure of the reason for these other than that. Wish to expound?

[Jabberwocky]

They are supposed to confer the advantage of a 12-hole tie-block on a traditional 6-hole tie-block, namely, increased string break angle over the bone saddle. The traditional looping method of tying the strings reduces the string break angle. An increased break angle exerts more downforce on the saddle thus transferring more string energy to the guitar.



I like them because they look neat, make stringing up faster, and reveal the full beauty of the decorative strip on the tie-block.

[lammie200]

The latest version of these tiny blocks are even smaller, thus less of a visual aberration. I like them as well and will likely never revert back to conventional string tying.

[pima1234]

I absolutely prefer a 12-string tie block (yes, it makes a difference), so those are on my purchase list.