Whether to study jazz or classical guitar

**Banksia** · 05-27-2009, 11:46 PM

Not just Italians! I had no idea who the Jonas Brothers were/are.(Probably shouldn't use present tense when referring to mass-market pop idols. They may already be "soooo 10 minutes ago!!")

In fairness to the mass-product music business, it does employ a lot of musicians who can then afford to indulge in jazz, classical, etc. Celine Dion has probably fed more violinists than many Symphony Orchestras. And back in the lean jazz period of the early 60s guys like Johnny Smith, Barney Kessel and Howard Roberts did pretty well out of the Top40, even though their names never appeared there.

Some people will use their pop fame fame to launch more substantial careers. One guy from Australian Idol used his boost to go to Memphis and record an album of all his favourite soul from the 60s using original musicians from those tracks. As a lover of 60s Motown, Atlantic and Stax, I find that a wonderful way to spend your money.

**Joe Dalton** · 05-28-2009, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by CC323

I, however, am not in anyway trying to say that you're wrong for liking the Jonas Brothers and other commercial groups in the same vein. To each his own. I just don't really understand why you're adamantly defending them as equally musical as the jazz greats on The Jazz Guitar Forum.

Take care,
Chris

I wouldn't say I listen to them, but the notion that one genre of music is better isn't a very artistic one. I would say on a jazz forum, with a genre that prides itself (more than any) on being artistic, to dismiss art that doesn't fit your style is pretty silly. No song simpler than knocking on heavens door by Bob Dylan, made as a movie soundtrack and much much less complex than any Jonas' Brothers tune. Noone really complains about it's merrit.

**franco6719** · 05-28-2009, 06:59 AM

Originally Posted by bkdavidson

No one ever told Franco who the Jonas Brothers are.

Franco, the Jonas Brothers are a trio of brothers over here in the States that are your basic, run-of-the-mill, bubblegum pop group. One of them has a guitar when he's on stage and the other two don't. They're sort of the male counterpart to Hannah Montana, if you know who that is. They're sort of manufactured by the Disney Channel and sell lots of records and concert tickets to 10-14 year-olds, and are very popular to hate amongst us "real" musicians.

I've been off the net for a few days, due to a computer virus infection. I was amused by the discussion here. Anyway, I was born in the US and only reside in Italy for the last ten years. I just don't keep careful track of the commerical/pop music scene. I looked up Jonas Brothers on Wikipedia, though, and found I don't mind their music, so much as their fundamentalist sort of political and theological views.

On the substantive topic, we seem to get into the usual philosophical puzzles about subjectivity vs. standards, and so on. I do agree that one genre (i.e. jazz) cannot and should not be classified as "better" just because it is more complex. Jazz is not better than rock or classical or country and classical is not better than progressive fusion or whatever.

On the other hand, there must be some standards. The fact that something is commericially successful, in any case, does not necessarily say anything about it's artistic or moral value. Take, for example, all the recent discussions about hip-hip. It seems that many of the first-generation hip-hop artists and people who know a lot about hip-hop music insist that their music has been hijacked by corporate executives who only allow the publication of the worst stuff with the most angry and hateful lyrics because "controversy sells". It seems that there IS something about modern capitalism that allows for the artifical generation of demand (via subtle brainwashing) of whatever music that the people in power find to be useful and most lucrative. Now, this is ANTI-art, I have to say. But the situation is what it is.

**Joe Dalton** · 05-28-2009, 07:21 AM

People said Bebop was the death of jazz, rap was the death of music, rock was satans music, etc etc.
To me it seems as long as the last generation keeps saying the new music is dreadfull and everything is going down the shitter, it's still going in the right direction, if the last generation is satisfied that's when I'd worry.

**franco6719** · 05-28-2009, 07:47 AM

On the other hand, an 18-year-old friend of mind says that everything has gone down the toilet in all of the arts and it is the fault of James Joyce (almost 100 years ago). (;

**hubert54** · 05-29-2009, 02:38 AM

let the "Jonas Brothers" be the "Jonas Brothers", there are tons of stuff like that. ( although I don't know them all...)
Why nobody mentions Tarrega or Sor or Leo Brouwer?
Jazz is an experience, but a part of "music"
and truly a mysterious one regarding "musical language"
And if you don't listen to Johann Sebastian Bach's music, you miss a lot.
Study "classical guitar" and if you don't like it, leave it aside.
On the other hand, play James Joyce's "Ulysses" on the guitar.
Regarding "going down the toilet" - things like that happened all over
the thousands of years within "our history of mankind"

sorry, austrian two cents

CC323 · 05-29-2009, 11:17 AM

You're right, and the current 'academization' of guitar and its being more accepted by the classical community could be viewed as 'going down the tube' by more traditionalist classical musicians, and would have been complete blasphemy to the mid-to-late 19th century classical community.

And actually, there was a brief discussion on Tarrega's non-use of nails somewhere on this forum, but that got kind of brushed over.

Take care,
Chris

**hubert54** · 05-29-2009, 01:57 PM

chris or something like that,
I honestly appreciate your posting within many useless ones

CC323 · 05-29-2009, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by hubert54

chris or something like that,
I honestly appreciate your posting within many useless ones

Sarcasm? If so, my apologies for offending you. If not, then thanks!

I assume you play classical as well then? What pieces have you studied?

**hubert54** · 05-30-2009, 12:54 AM

oh, of course no sarcasm intended!
I only try to focus an a "musical language"
(btw. I'm "autodidact") and have tons of papers around here
Bach, Sor, Aguado, Brouwer, Heitor Villa Lobos, Tarrega(would like to hear him playing "live")
and after all notes for the bassoon
struggling with mickey baker books etc. etc.
My main "instrument" and the most important one is the voice.
I think if you want to play "jazz", it makes no difference playing it on electric or "nylon", I think it's only the "inner voice" that matters.

Appreciated your answer
take care or stay tuned

Always have been a fan of Julian Bream

**DMatthewsBand07** · 06-07-2009, 06:50 PM

Personally I think Tarrega would put on a wonderful show... I hear he used to crazy stuff with lights and fog machines. Just kidding about that last bit. But seriously who wouldn't want to see those guys live. Its been said (by whom I don't know) that Tarrega had the most beautiful tone of any guitarist before or after and could bring audiences to tears with even his simple compositions like La Grima.

Anyway, if anyone contests the value of classical technique to a jazz guitarist they should take a look at Johnny Smith. Particularly his take on My Funny Valentine on the Moonlight in Vermont album. Both genres are useful to the other. Jazz teaches musicians to break the mould and add their own flair to everything and create something from nothing. Classical music teaches musicians how to play one measure three thousand different ways and convey a different emotion each time even though the line itself doesnt change. I'd equate jazz to painting on a blank canvas -creation, impression, etc. - and classical music to photography - how many different emotions can we bring through that one persons face just by changing the light, or angle, etc.

**Sordello** · 06-21-2009, 11:51 PM

weswood88:

sounds like a rough go with your classical teacher, but try not to let that influence your long-term choices. There is a marvellous world waiting halfway between classical and jazz to explore!

Have a listen to Gene Bertoncini play Cavatina (Body and Soul) and the Chopin Prelude/How Insensitive medley (Jobim: Someone To Light Up My Life) or listen to Larry Coryell's take on Ravel's Pavane (Private Concert) or also on that CD, Spanish Suite by Rodrigo. Nice mixes of classical AND jazz...

maybe jazz can give you the chops, but classical can offer some of the bases for doing your improvising? maybe it's not either/or but both??

**Sphereacidburn** · 06-22-2009, 06:01 PM

Why not Study Both you can get the right finger exercises and movements from classical and then have lots and lots of fun in Jazz, as classical is fun too

**polishcomedy** · 09-30-2009, 03:34 AM

Why are you asking us? What do you listen to? That's what you should play. You will only enjoy playing music you enjoy listening to. In time you will grow to appreciate other types of music, and in that case you can learn those, too.

**mattymel** · 01-13-2010, 05:39 AM

for me, i prefer to keep these tww worlds separate. even when its done by someone like gene bertoncini, i still wish i was hearing him play on his D'Angelico. it can work, but only for some things. def not bebop.

you will learn alot from studying both intensely, but at different periods. trying to do both at once is very difficult i think. if not impossible. they are completely different instruments in many ways.

when i was playing classical seriously, i was doing it 5 hours a day and still had a hard time playing some of those pieces. i think with jazz, listening is more important. i was listening to so much more music when i was into jazz. in classical, you can find some of the most beautiful music. but there is ALOT of stuff that is pretty ehh...

i think that why i couldnt stick with just classy. you get to a point where you have learned most of the pieces you love, and then there is all the carcassi and giuliani stuff...a lot of it. (for me) of which maybe 1% is good.

plus, to be honest, i found most of the classy players are kind of up tight and strange. not sure what it is. but i think they get so caught up with what their hands are doing, they arent even listening. some seem like they would be just as happy looking at their hands in a mirror and not even hearing what they were playing. still there is nothing like playing some bach by yourself late at night.

**Sailor** · 01-13-2010, 10:43 PM

"still there is nothing like playing some bach by yourself late at night."

Best thing in the world......

Sailor

**ronjazz** · 05-31-2010, 04:05 PM

Probably 95% of all music for the past 500 years was throwaway dance music. For every Beethoven or Mozart there were hundreds of "pop" composers writing minuets and gavottes for the local weekend get-togethers. Mass appeal generally involves simplicity and affordability. Chevies and Fords sell better than Maseratis and BMWs, but aren't really of the same quality.

Classical guitar will open your ears and hands to voice-leading and phrasing in useful ways, and may give you enough technique to be able to play solo gigs with tunes related to jazz. And it's never uncool to be able to play well.

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 02:03 AM

Well,

Perhaps... ask yourself... really... honestly... ask yourself... what do you want to do with this music?

Do you want to be a performer? Why are you studying? What is your objective?

I ask this question to all of my students because I want to know what exactly we're doing here.

After that, I will be glad to help you in any way I can.

**max_power** · 12-09-2010, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Probably 95% of all music for the past 500 years was throwaway dance music. For every Beethoven or Mozart there were hundreds of "pop" composers writing minuets and gavottes for the local weekend get-togethers. Mass appeal generally involves simplicity and affordability. Chevies and Fords sell better than Maseratis and BMWs, but aren't really of the same quality.

True... but the difference is that the examples you used are all respected as great. Mozart was always considered THE composer (and still is), even by people who knew nothing about music; everyone "knows" BMWs are high quality vehicles, even people who don't know anything about cars. But people who know nothing about music these days admire artists like the Jonas Brothers and the Black Eyed Peas, whereas the truly great musicians are only respected by those in the know.

**jazzuki** · 12-09-2010, 05:55 AM

You can do both-I did 2 yrs classical about 30 yrs ago never regreted it ,but once a Jazzer always a Jazzer. The guy I always admire is Andre Previn-great classical pianist and now conductor-but what a great jazz pianist made a lot of recordings with Barney Kessel and Joe Pass to mention a few,so go where your heart is-music is music after all!