Segovia Scales

**ksjazzguitar** · 12-09-2010, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by JohnRoss

Never known a classical guitarist worth a damn who was arrogant enough to scorn the Segovia scales. ...

Although I may regret sticking my nose in here...

I have known many CGists that - while maybe not "scorning" the Segovia scales - do think that they are not the ideal fingerings. Although we owe El Maestro a tremendous debt of gratitude, he was a very idiosyncratic player and very chauvinistic in his approach and his fingerings (he was known to verbally abuse players that didn't use his fingerings - how dare they?!?!?) Perhaps, John Ross, your being in Spain (if I remember correctly) there is still more leftover apotheosis of Segovia than there is here in the States or in other place. While Segovia is still respected here, for most of us his word is no longer taken as Gospel.

But I do agree that it is more than a bit hyperbolic to say that they are "a waste of time and money." I would have said, "They are no longer considered the only option to finger scales and some feel that they are not the best."

I say, learn the Segovia scales. Learn several other systems. Then figure out your own based on what you've learned.

Originally Posted by KShri

Go and find me 5 works that contain a scale over 2 - 3 octaves. ...

True, but I don't think that they only reason to practice something is that it has an exact analog in the music. Sometimes you just practice things because they build technique. A footballer does jumping-jacks and sit-ups to get in shape for the game, even though no one has every won a football match by doing a sit-up or jumping-jack. Somethings are just strengthening exercises that put exaggerated emphasis on one area.

Originally Posted by KShri

For any particular passage, you should be able to come up with all the alternate possibilities on your own. Then, you should decide which fingering to use.

That I would agree with. But beginners to sometimes need to be spoon fed these things so they learn to see the possibilities and pick up good habits. I certainly came up with terrible fingerings when I started playing CG - I just couldn't see the possibilities yet and I often chose fingerings that were clumsier than they should have been. It was by being shown good fingerings (even if they weren't the only possible ones) that I learned.

Peace,
Kevin

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 02:44 PM

True, but I don't think that they only reason to practice something is that it has an exact analog in the music. Sometimes you just practice things because they build technique. A footballer does jumping-jacks and sit-ups to get in shape for the game, even though no one has every won a football match by doing a sit-up or jumping-jack. Somethings are just strengthening exercises that put exaggerated emphasis on one area.

Very well put. I recommend pumping nylon because it does contain many exercises that build strength. It's called pumping nylon, a play on pumping iron. If you want technique, buy that book.

The merit of the Segovia scales are position shifts. However, you don't need to buy "Segovia" scales to practice diatonic major and minor scales and position shifts.

The fact that you cannot come up with 5 works for guitar that contain a scale over 2 - 3 octaves should speak for itself. The only work I can think of is the Chaccone and perhaps some works by Rodrigo.

Thanks for sticking your nose in.

**ksjazzguitar** · 12-09-2010, 03:04 PM

"Pumping Nylon" is very well respect in the CG circles I have been in. It is often treated as a de facto bible of CG technique. It is a great book.

Peace,
Kevin

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 03:20 PM

I like you more and more

**JohnRoss** · 12-09-2010, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

The merit of the Segovia scales are position shifts.

One of their merits, at least.

However, you don't need to buy "Segovia" scales to practice diatonic major and minor scales and position shifts.

Not a lot to argue about there. Why didn't you just say that in the first place, instead of "The Segovia scales are a waste of time and money?"

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

For the left hand, Segovia scales are all about shifting, that is, not playing in one position. Shearer and Leavitt spend a great deal of time with position playing. Shearer is basically CAGED.

They are all, essentially, CAGED, even the Segovia scales. Not that I'm an expert on CAGED (after my time, basically), but if you look at his ascending three-octave Bb scale, for example, it's the V position 'E' form for an octave and a third up to the middle D, shifts up to the VIII position Eb and becomes a 'D' form up to the top D on the first string, where you play the Eb and F in what is basically the 'C' form (but if you prefer to think of it as the 'A' form, or deny any connection at all with CAGED for these two notes, that's OK by me), then the G A and top Bb are the XV position 'G' form. The descent is even clearer, most of it being in an unmistakeable 'C' form.

All three types of scale have their merits. The ones I have worked on most myself are the Berkeley scales which, with their first and fourth finger stretches (and their double-stopping, though this is less advantageous on the CG), are good for thirds and short arpeggios without your having to think very hard. The Segovia scales, obviously, favour moving along the neck, which in turn gives you a more violin-like, singing approach to the instrument (especially with the "think about every note" frame of mind). The Shearer scales are the ones I know least, but I can see how their squeezes and openings must be good for in-position speed. None of them is 'the' solution. But none of them is a waste of time, either.

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 04:28 PM

The "solution" to what? Be specific here please.

They are all, essentially, CAGED, even the Segovia scales. Not that I'm an expert on CAGED (after my time, basically), but if you look at his ascending three-octave Bb scale, for example, it's the V position 'E' form for an octave and a third up to the middle D, shifts up to the VIII position Eb and becomes a 'D' form up to the top D on the first string, where you play the Eb and F in what is basically the 'C' form (but if you prefer to think of it as the 'A' form, or deny any connection at all with CAGED for these two notes, that's OK by me), then the G A and top Bb are the XV position 'G' form. The descent is even clearer, most of it being in an unmistakeable 'C' form.

What musical relevance does this have?

**JohnRoss** · 12-09-2010, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

The "solution" to what?

Learn to read. The quotation marks don't go there.

Be specific here please.

Why don't you try not being an insufferable snotrag, instead?

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 04:51 PM

I enjoy being callous to those who are ignorant and weak in their musical skills and chose to remain close minded.

**ronjazz** · 12-09-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

I enjoy being callous to those who are ignorant and weak in their musical skills and chose to remain close minded.

That's because you're 24.

**JohnRoss** · 12-09-2010, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

I enjoy being callous to those who are ignorant and weak in their musical skills and chose to remain close minded.

Which, I am fairly sure, gives me carte blanche to be as offensive as I want. My musical skills may or may not be weak, my ignorance is as nothing compared to your complete twat-headedness, The only closed-minded person in this thread is yourself, who denies the benefits of a series of scales which has benefited generations of guitarists. So why don't you just bog off and drown yourself in your own snot?

**JohnRoss** · 12-09-2010, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

That's because you're 24.

That's because he's 24 and a wanker. Lots of people manage to be twenty-something-year-olds without being wankers.

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 09:12 PM

You can not seem to defend your musical beliefs and musical opinions. I have asked you reasonable questions to which you seem unable to answer.

Your personal beliefs and opinions: different subject.

**fumblefingers** · 12-09-2010, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

You can not seem to defend your musical beliefs and musical opinions. I have asked you reasonable questions to which you seem unable to answer.

Your personal beliefs and opinions: different subject.

i believe that you implied that there were not pieces of classical guitar music that contained scale passages of 2 octaves. you may not have said that, but you seemed to imply it. then you offered examples of Rodrigo and another composer (thought of Rodrigo myself, as well as Turina, Torroba, and maybe Capricho Arabe? etc).

anyway. so did you mean strictly uninterrupted seconds/steps? or would a long range melodic passage that was largely scalar meet your challenge?

it seems to me that two octave ascending or descending melodic passages aren't that rare. further, a useful way to build technique is to play scales over a similarly wide range. after getting those under your hands you can branch out and play scale "patterns" (especially if you're a jazzer), or simply play the composers' pieces if you're a classical player. such long passages might otherwise be a tall order.

**KShri** · 12-09-2010, 09:54 PM

Well, the Chaccone is traditionally the tell tale sign of whether a guitarist has practiced their scales or not.

Yes I did mean strictly uninterrupted. But a long melodic contour, sure, I'll definitely say that it should meet the criteria.

You're right, they are not that rare. But they are not that common either. We can only come up with a handful and what we have other than Bach's Chaccone is entirely Spanish composers - it must be all the piano and flamenco influence! It's all centered around the 20th century. But I should have been more specific. I really only meant classical music, I didn't include jazz.

**jack_gvr** · 12-09-2010, 11:02 PM

Narciso Yepes had some show piece that he played, I forget what, with a long scale from the low strings all the way up and off the end of the high E string and ending with a pizzicato no-frets-up-there flourish. The audience always went nuts. Whether there was any other musical value to the piece I really don't recall, but the effect was memorable. You have four octaves available from the low E open (Yepes had more) up to the two octave mark on the high E, and it's fun to run off the frets at full speed. Only Segovia's position shifting technique does the trick for this kind of thing. Notice that almost none of the 19th century literature before Tarrega has such shifts - most position shifts pivot on the open strings in Giuliani, Sor, et al, with some exceptions like Giuliani's Eroica Sonata, possibly - .

John Ross, easy does it, old buddy. Yr mind is sharp as ever, tongue even sharper. Touche, every time.

I bought Shearer's scale book years ago and never made it all the way through - borrrrring. These patterns should be discovered through stochastic process, studying the fingerboard, never mind reading them out of a book like a bureaucrat looking up the rules. I did play Segovia's scales exclusively for many years, daily ------- UNTIL that watershed year when I discovered that I needed to develop my improvisation chops based on a thorough working out of fingerboard harmony, in order to progress with that then-illusive goal of making a living playing the guitar. Then I immediately noticed the limitations.

Once again, the merit of Segovia's scales are the position shift techniques, and the book is essentially a demonstration of those. If you are looking, as I am, to understand ALL the possible permutations - and harmonic implications, more importantly - of a scale in a given key across and up the fingerboard, then you have to (IMHO) practice the scale in all positions with all possible fingerings, each one going across all six strings in one basic position involving not more than six frets, i.e., beginning with the left hand index on each consecutive scale tone on the low E string and playing mostly 3-note per string patterns across all six strings in each resulting position. Segovia's scale fingerings are relentlessly restricted to those positions in which one can use close positions with the LH fingers restricted to a four-fret block. He uses these because they allow the left hand to be relaxed for the position shifts. Unfortunately, the places where you can play a scale in four fret blocks are quite limited compared with the number of positions available if this restriction is relaxed. The other positions require that the index or the pinky be extended to a fifth fret in the position at various times. When I am first warming up, I do restrict myself to four-fret patterns with frequent Segovia-style shifts to other comfortable positions. But as soon as I start the harmonic minor - egregious omission from Segovia's book - the four-fret-position restriction goes out the window in favor of more creative options.

The argument that "There's nothing in the repertory like that" has to be the lamest ever. A clear sign that this person has no particular interest in creativity and is merely another musical bureaucrat. Go practice your Carcassi. We get this from "book" classical guitarists about every possible new thing that anybody thinks of to do on the guitar. The use of the RH pinky, left hand thumb cello-style, alternate tremolo patterns, etc... "There's nothing in the repertory that says I need to do that". These are the folks who echo e e cummings' satiric line: "Infinity pleased our parents; one inch looks good to us!"

**KShri** · 12-10-2010, 05:05 AM

I take a Bruce Lee philosophy to understanding this instrument : "Absorb what is useful; Disregard that which is useless" Once you have learned it, and become proficient in it, you can dismiss it only then. There is no one style or method. To cling to one is to never free oneself from it.

**KShri** · 12-10-2010, 05:15 AM

Only Segovia's position shifting technique does the trick for this kind of thing.

Pretty much true! Clever observation! There is a part in Legnani's Fantasie at the very end where it is a 3 octave chromatic scale down the neck, and I remember it's easiest to do it exactly this way using these four fret shapes. It's fun!

You should check out Gabriel Bianco. He does a 3 octave chromatic scale using only his first finger! And it sounds dazzling. Check it out on youtube!

**ronjazz** · 12-10-2010, 12:45 PM

That, of course, is Django Reinhardt's method, one finger for dazzling chromatic runs.
And for a guy who can't spell Chaconne, you certainly do bring to life Bruce Lee's philosophy.

**Soco** · 12-10-2010, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by KShri

I take a Bruce Lee philosophy to understanding this instrument : "Absorb what is useful; Disregard that which is useless" Once you have learned it, and become proficient in it, you can dismiss it only then. There is no one style or method. To cling to one is to never free oneself from it.

You'r philosophy is not in anyones interest, we where talking about Segovias scales not the opinion on some rude and offensive person with the mind of Bristol Palin.

**KShri** · 12-10-2010, 03:10 PM

Soco:

How you got a Master's degree in guitar and could possibly be so incompetent in terms of technique is beyond me.

**KShri** · 12-10-2010, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

That, of course, is Django Reinhardt's method, one finger for dazzling chromatic runs.
And for a guy who can't spell Chaconne, you certainly do bring to life Bruce Lee's philosophy.

I tried, really. I tried.