Players using classical technique?

[oneworld]

yes, ken is a great player, but he's mostly playing nylon-string guitars !

the OP's starting point of discussion was that 'modern classical RH guitar
technique' (re: hand positioning, nails etc) is applicable to an electric archtop steel-string guitar for 'fingerstyle jazz guitar' playing...

great topic !!!

[oneworld]

(incidentally doesn't Eubanks play with a very wide neck? i seem to recollect that he was quoted somewhere saying something about it... i'll be embarrased if that topic is covered in one of the above vids, which i haven't watched yet.)

kevin's electric archtop and a couple of his acoustic steel-string guitars
do have considerably wider necks built to his specs by abe rivera.

[oneworld]

yes, have that one...

wolfgang has an unfair advantage because he was a violinplayer too...

and he is a trained classical guitar player, but i never heard/saw him
play his RH technique on an electric steel-string guitar... he keeps switching
over to the pick... as you can see in this great clip where he starts out on the
frameworks classical...

@fumblefingers...

have you heard the trio w/ ralph towner and slava grigoryan ?

[oneworld]

I'm not getting what the controversy is here--I would think we all agree that the differences in guitar, size, strings, nut width, nail length, amplification, would necessitate that the touch and strokes are not exactly the same.

But my goal in learning classical technique is to really FREE the right hand, to really get the fingers working, really develop finger independence and coordination. to be able to go to musical places the pick can't take you.

exactly... i've been at it for more than 30 years...

btw, great post about jarrett and evans !

[hed_b94]

another real constraint with using classical guitar RH technique on an electric guitar (besides the steel strings shredding your nails to bits), is string spacing.

even a Benedetto or Buscarino with 1 12/16" nut width isn't really wide enough for the full blown classical RH, unless your fingers are as narrow as pencils. you should probably cogitate on that for a bit.

perhaps that's why some guys switch to Buscarino Grand Cabaret's. or Godin's.

(incidentally doesn't Eubanks play with a very wide neck? i seem to recollect that he was quoted somewhere saying something about it... i'll be embarrased if that topic is covered in one of the above vids, which i haven't watched yet.)

How are the strings spaces on 7 strings hollow electric guitars?

yes, ken is a great player, but he's mostly playing nylon-string guitars !

the OP's starting point of discussion was that 'modern classical RH guitar
technique' (re: hand positioning, nails etc) is applicable to an electric archtop steel-string guitar for 'fingerstyle jazz guitar' playing...



great topic !!!

Why do I need to tell you this so many times? This wasn't supposed to be a discussion about classical technique. I just assumed there ARE players like that, and asked for them.
Somehow since your first message here all you do is talk about technique and how about I'm scared from a "healty discussion".

lenny breau, jeff linsky, roland dyens.
not much point in using pure classical technique if u arent playing a classical guitar though. the control over tone and other dynamics it gives doesnt transfer to electric/steel stringed guitars

Maybe not as sublte as on the nylon strings, but I'm sure some of the tibre difference are hear-able. And besides, the idea of that is more about the harmonic-pianistic use of the guitar. So maybe 'pure' isn't the best choice, but only few changes are needed.

[hed_b94]

It's my real name, an heirloom from my grandfather. Maybe if I posted as "X" you wouldn't pick that minor detail and be able to focus.

Who knows? Maybe your sense of entitlement to the exact answers you want, your general unappreciative nature, and musical stubborness that make people want to place the cheese just beyond your reach.

Do you see the irony?

You ignore the main part of the message, focusing on the aristotle thing, so you can blame me for doing exactly what you just did. Thus proving my point...

[Aristotle]

Do you see the irony?

No, because I intentionally avoided what you think is the main point, and told you so in the next sentence. If I had done it unwittingly, it would be irony.

[JohnRoss]

Do you see the irony?

That you are so ungracious as to argue pointlessly with people instead of just saying 'thank you'? Yes, it is ironic, now that you mention it, I had put it down to plain bad manners, or out-and-out trolling. Wouldn't you be happier on a soccer forum or something?

[Aristotle]

the point is that the strings are too close for RH classical technique. thats why you see so many guys (steel string fingerstyle players) modifying the technique (shorter overall stroke, repeated finger strokes, etc) . things are more confined.

its no accident that the classical guitar nut width is just over 2". its not for fat fingers on the left hand. in fact it makes it harder on the left hand to play almost everything.

I think some of that is true. I prefer wider necks for the left hand - for chords that have open strings between the fretted strings, and generally to help keep left hand fingers from interferring with a held over note.

On the RH, I figured one finger per string and or "repeated strokes" result because most players don't train themselves in the daunting complexities of the RH. The "flat wrist" you described is a sign (to me) of playing from the 'wrong' joint (and the habit of palm-muting, and it feels more natural in the beginning). IMO, playing off the wrong joint inhibits i-m and other types of velocity because it entails using opposing muscle groups which also leads to excess tension. Playing off the wrong joint inhibits the capacity to control tone because you won't be able to make the string vibrate at angles that approach being perpendicular to the body of the guitar. (This is not to say a "classically" trained player never uses flat-wristed positions).

The flat-wristed position is the one that creates the need to "shorten" the stroke as you call it - I assume to avoid hitting the next string. If anything, when playing out of a more 'correct' wrist position, you might want to bend the wrist more, not less, to avoid hitting the next string. Flattening the wrist puts the next strong MORE in the pathway, not less.

So, I don't see the complex of "flat wristed" characteristics you describe as growing out of neck width. I think it because many of these players don't have to perform varied and demanding things with the right hand fingers. So, they have no reason to develop the technique. And as this is jazz, the tendency is to play what is natural to you, not necessarily what is demanded by the composer.

[fumblefingers]

and he is a trained classical guitar player, but i never heard/saw him
play his RH technique on an electric steel-string guitar... he keeps switching
over to the pick... as you can see in this great clip where he starts out on the
frameworks classical...

@fumblefingers...

have you heard the trio w/ ralph towner and slava grigoryan ?

hey thanks for that vid. nice mood. have to admit though, this tune makes me wish for a player who is more explosive than any of those players, but slightly less explosive than Johnny Mac. Like say.... Metheny. but then, i didnt have to think that hard to say that. this has an ECMish sound already doesnt it?

[fumblefingers]

How are the strings spaces on 7 strings hollow electric guitars?


Why do I need to tell you this so many times? This wasn't supposed to be a discussion about classical technique. I just assumed there ARE players like that, and asked for them.
Somehow since your first message here all you do is talk about technique and how about I'm scared from a "healty discussion".


Maybe not as sublte as on the nylon strings, but I'm sure some of the tibre difference are hear-able. And besides, the idea of that is more about the harmonic-pianistic use of the guitar. So maybe 'pure' isn't the best choice, but only few changes are needed.

string spacing would be the same as a regular Benedetto or Buscarino archtop, methinks. just one extra string.

[fumblefingers]

I think some of that is true. I prefer wider necks for the left hand - for chords that have open strings between the fretted strings, and generally to help keep left hand fingers from interferring with a held over note.

On the RH, I figured one finger per string and or "repeated strokes" result because most players don't train themselves in the daunting complexities of the RH. The "flat wrist" you described is a sign (to me) of playing from the 'wrong' joint (and the habit of palm-muting, and it feels more natural in the beginning). IMO, playing off the wrong joint inhibits i-m and other types of velocity because it entails using opposing muscle groups which also leads to excess tension. Playing off the wrong joint inhibits the capacity to control tone because you won't be able to make the string vibrate at angles that approach being perpendicular to the body of the guitar. (This is not to say a "classically" trained player never uses flat-wristed positions).

The flat-wristed position is the one that creates the need to "shorten" the stroke as you call it - I assume to avoid hitting the next string. If anything, when playing out of a more 'correct' wrist position, you might want to bend the wrist more, not less, to avoid hitting the next string. Flattening the wrist puts the next strong MORE in the pathway, not less.

So, I don't see the complex of "flat wristed" characteristics you describe as growing out of neck width. I think it because many of these players don't have to perform varied and demanding things with the right hand fingers. So, they have no reason to develop the technique. And as this is jazz, the tendency is to play what is natural to you, not necessarily what is demanded by the composer.

yeah, i'm not saying that all the "blasphemies" that non-classical fingerstyle players commit are due to relatively narrow string spacing.

i'll bet that Hatfield's book is informative. think i'll get it.

i think that we can conclude that classical guitar is classical guitar. there may be similar playing styles (techniques). but similar is not the same.

another problem solved.

[rvi]

Maybe not as sublte as on the nylon strings, but I'm sure some of the tibre difference are hear-able. And besides, the idea of that is more about the harmonic-pianistic use of the guitar. So maybe 'pure' isn't the best choice, but only few changes are needed.

yeah sure. there are plenty of guys that play with a kind of appraoch that enables them to play multiple parts. anderson, gatton, pass, van eps, garland, byrd and so on. also stanley jordan has a rather unique style

[Aristotle]

yeah, i'm not saying that all the "blasphemies" that non-classical fingerstyle players commit are due to relatively narrow string spacing.

I am not sure any of the blasphemies are due to string spacing.

i think that we can conclude that classical guitar is classical guitar. there may be similar playing styles (techniques). but similar is not the same.

I continue to resist that. You can play classical music on a nylon string with your hand in a bad position as I did for years. Now I can play all types of music with better technique on any guitar.

[hed_b94]

It's my real name, an heirloom from my grandfather. Maybe if I posted as "X" you wouldn't pick that minor detail and be able to focus.

Who knows? Maybe your sense of entitlement to the exact answers you want, your general unappreciative nature, and musical stubborness that make people want to place the cheese just beyond your reach.

I am not sure any of the blasphemies are due to string spacing.

I continue to resist that. You can play classical music on a nylon string with your hand in a bad position as I did for years. Now I can play all types of music with better technique on any guitar.

Of course you CAN, but you will have many limitations with your playing.
Playing the notes on the guitar isn't really that hard, it's hard to do it beatifully and clean, without mistakes.

[Aristotle]

Of course you CAN, but you will have many limitations with your playing.

And exactly how will using optimal RH fingerstyle technique limit my playing?

Just a hunch I have had from the start - that you don't have a clue what I am talking about. Prove me wrong by explaining what my reference to opposing muscle groups and tension, was about.

[hed_b94]

And exactly how will using optimal RH fingerstyle technique limit my playing?

Just a hunch I have had from the start - that you don't have a clue what I am talking about. Prove me wrong by explaining what my reference to opposing muscle groups and tension, was about.

OPTIMAL? You just said "play in a bad position". bad is the new optimal?

It's nice, isnt it? misinterpitation my message and then telling me I don't have a clue?

[Aristotle]

OPTIMAL? You just said "play in a bad position". bad is the new optimal?

You flunk reading comprehension. It's still going over your head.

[hed_b94]

You flunk reading comprehension. It's still going over your head.

Maybe I am missing something from your older posts, but I think I do get it, you just don't understand that I'm not agreeing with the things you say. If it's still 'over my head' would you mind explaining it?

And just so you can prove you DO understand my references, what did I refer to and what was the point of my last two msgs?

[NSJ]

I have gotten back to playing finger style with my jazz box (rounds 13-56). I can tell you at my lessons that I get massively reprimanded (and rightly so) for my my sloppy right hand technique at my lessons--- #1 lesson that gets repeated --"un-necessary and wasteful motion is the enemy of the guitarist!"

I have really slowed down my scales to make sure that that I truly alternate p-i and I-m, particularly when crossing strings. the other big technical issue with my string crossing I have to make sure that the hand properly "opens up" when I go across the strings, so I'm not "reaching" for a note and I always maintain proper shape. I am humble enough to recognize that I need to solve a ton of technical mistakes with my right hand, that practicing improperly and inefficiently makes one internalize making mistakes as normal.

Its gonna take a lot of work to establish true finger dexterity, movement and independence. BUt in order to do that , I have to practice correctly and really work on correct technique.

[Jazzaluk]

This is a nice classical technique against a Joe Pass arrangement. Anything is possible. In many respects, this sounds more articulate than Joe himself, but I still like Joe's feel better.

[Aristotle]

Jazzaluk,
I am not sure what you trying to tell me. I don't care for the song, the arrangement, and it is played with almost no jazz feel. And I never heard Pass play this. Are you trying to imply that if one has a full array of RH fingerstyle techniques, one cannot sound jazzy?

I like this, warts and all. I think it shows the difference between what might be loosely termed "fingerstyle jazz" and "jazz" (that happens to be fingerstyle). It's ambitious, it takes chances and it's "jazzy."

[Jazzaluk]

No agenda here, just a post. The "My Romance" arrangement is taken from Joe Pass' CD "Unforgettable". It is very close to JP's phrasing, but like I said, I like Joe's feel better, even though it is not as precise. It is a good head to head comparison if you get a chance to listen to the JP version.

Not too fond of the Buzzurro vid. A bit over embellished for my taste. Very technical but doesn't convey any mood. But some great playing no doubt. Sounds more classical influenced than jazz to me.

[fumblefingers]

well not to add to the pissing contest but it appears to me that Buzzurro is using the flamenco right hand, not classical, yes?

i'm not an expert on Flamenco, but he is playing with his fingertips at a 90 degree angle to the strings/neck, no?

[Aristotle]

well not to add to the pissing contest but it appears to me that Buzzurro is using the flamenco right hand, not classical, yes?

That's part of why I was opposing the label "classical" from the outset. Similarly, I am not going along with the label "flamenco" either. Instead, I spoke of a fully developed array of RH techniques. So, that's every kind of chord stroke and rolls (rasguedo's), Atkins muted bass, slap-bass (which was used on one the tubes posted here), Van Halen tapping - anything and everything.

On the other hand, I suppose it would be hard to tremelo a chord while playing finger style without it reminding someone of flamenco where tremolo and other rapidly strummed chords are common.

I hope that's not pissing too much.