Players using classical technique?

[Jazzpunk]

Please tell me you're kidding....

This thread is about guitar, and guitar technique. I don't care if you can play Bach on lute, or with your ass, because I'm talking about GUITAR technique.
So you tell me I should rethink my playing, as if yours is better FOR GUITAR, but then changing to "it's better for me". So please decide, and don't bother me.


Now for your next childish move:
My playing isn't related. And isn't even a topic of discussion here. I only replied to you talking about your technique.

Please tell me you are kidding with this BS!

You didn't really think you were going to call out a musician of oneworld's caliber on his technique and not have him expect you to back it up did you?!

Show some respect man, people are just trying to be helpful.

[hed_b94]

Telling me to show some respect right after referring to my message as "this bullshit". that's lovely.

I really have no interest in arguing with oneworld and his protectors/fans, or talking about lute technique which I'm really not very familiar with, so please let's return to the original purpose of this topic.

[oneworld]

[Jazzpunk]

Telling me to show some respect right after referring to my message as "this bullshit". that's lovely.

I really have no interest in arguing with oneworld and his protectors/fans, or talking about lute technique which I'm really not very familiar with, so please let's return to the original purpose of this topic.

Sorry but calling out someone on their technique and than lashing out when asked to back it up is BS imo.

I really have no interest in arguing with defensive forum members who lack respect for the real players on this board. Enjoy your thread!

[Jazzpunk]

Muthspiel is amazing! He so easily applies or adapts his classical technique to whatever instrument he is playing at the time. Never locking himself into one finger style technique but easily flowing from one to the other depending on the instrument and the requirements of the music.

Do you have his 'Friendly Travellers' DVD? It is really wonderful!

[oneworld]

The classical technique is really about tone and projection on a classical guitar. It does not produce the same effect with amplification where projection is not the driver. On electric guitars the touch has to be adapted to the amplifier and the tone you desire. There are more variables so experimentation is necessary.

couldn't have said it better...

[oneworld]

Muthspiel is amazing! He so easily applies or adapts his classical technique to whatever instrument he is playing at the time. Never locking himself into one finger style technique but easily flowing from one to the other depending on the instrument and the requirements of the music.

Do you have his 'Friendly Travellers' DVD? It is really wonderful!

yes, have that one...

wolfgang has an unfair advantage because he was a violinplayer too...

[fumblefingers]

1 mostly.

I think there is a little part of the technique that is a must to modify in order to IMPROVISE, mostly the part of right hand fingerings (I hope that makes sense, I just don't know the name of it- I DONT mean left hand). Other than that it's prboably best to go the classical way. Of course even in classical there are different approaches for different kind of people, but the principles are the same.


aristotle- just because you can't understand the difference doesn't mean it's not there.
There are some differences that fumble pointed out himself, I think the main one would be the sitting position. after that I will say the right hand position and attack angle.


So here's a specific for you- why do most non-classical players lower their right hand and place it as if they were playing with a pick?
Why is it better for jazz than for classical?
And why do they place their thumb so high on the neck, even when bending isn't needed at all? and play with no seperation of the left hand fingers?


I think the classical way is better for everything- Beatles and Bach, but most people don't play that way, and there are major differences between those two. If you can't see them, then you probably never learned classical and should stop posting here. If you did and just have a problem with the terms I am using, then I'll say the diffences between them is exactly the specifis I said earlier.

yeah, i thought #1 (or 3) was where you were going. did you ever say whether you play a steel vs. nylon stringed instrument? if nylon, i say go for it!

if steel, i will just say i'm skeptical, but go for it.

[fumblefingers]

[quote=Aristotle;133135]I wonder what that means in English.
-----

i think its just an overstatement. speaking in absolutes or quasi-absolutes (where humans are concerned) usually is.

there is however, and element of truth in it. electric bands tend to play loud a great deal of the time, but not all of the time of course. they tend to play mildly loud to very loud.

[hed_b94]

[QUOTE=fumblefingers;133243]

I wonder what that means in English.
-----

i think its just an overstatement. speaking in absolutes or quasi-absolutes (where humans are concerned) usually is.

there is however, and element of truth in it. electric bands tend to play loud a great deal of the time, but not all of the time of course. they tend to play mildly loud to very loud.

There was another topic on the forum about nails and how to keep them, and now I think it is possible to play with nails on metal strings. If it's too much of a trouble I can always play without the nails.

[oneworld]

kevin eubanks uses a 'lute/baroque guitar type' no nail RH technique with resting pinkie when playing lines/chords... incorporating classical, flamenco, blues & wes RH techniques etc... on electric & acoustic guitars... i'm not aware of anyone on this kind of a level who's using a classical 'nail' RH technique on steel string guitars... is there ?!?

great shots of kevin's RH technique in these vids:

[hed_b94]

oneworld- the players are great but it's really unrelated to what I'm asking.
If you think there is no guitarist in the world who plays classical (modern technique) on electric, just say it.

You are more than welcome to open your own thread and post all these great players there.

[oneworld]

If you think there is no guitarist in the world who plays classical (modern technique) on electric, just say it.

nah... please... you help me out here...

do you know anyone by name and credentials who's doing it ?

george van eps is really not employing very advanced modern classical
RH techniques...

i'm just posting clips by all these great players to let everyone see that one can
play electric fingerstyle without having to use 'modern' classical technique.
so, what's wrong with that ?!? can't take a healthy discussion ?

[hed_b94]

nah... please... you help me out here...

do you know anyone by name and credentials who's doing it ?

george van eps is really not employing very advanced modern classical
RH techniques...

i'm just posting clips by all these great players to let everyone see that one can
play electric fingerstyle without having to use 'modern' classical technique.
so, what's wrong with that ?!? can't take a healthy discussion ?

Ok, so there are none.


But that's not what the discussion is about. If you want to talk about electric fingerstyle without having to use modren classical technique -open your own topic and do it there. Please do not answer my message, goodbye.

[oneworld]

Ok, so there are none.

But that's not what the discussion is about. If you want to talk about electric fingerstyle without having to use modren classical technique -open your own topic and do it there. Please do not answer my message, goodbye.

oh young padewan, you need to relax !

i've reread all your posts in this thread and i'm getting the impression
you're not really interested in a sincere discussion... and you've been quite
unfriendly to some other posters here, who were making informed suggestions and giving you their perspectives... so what do you expect ?

[Aristotle]

aristotle- just because you can't understand the difference doesn't mean it's not there.

Then again, maybe there is no difference. A vibrating sound wave does't know if it is part of classical music or jazz. Maybe the biggest difference is between nylon-string acoustic and electric, not "classical" and "jazz." If tone is a function of electronics, then it doesn't matter if you have flat wrist.

[hed_b94]

Then again, maybe there is no difference. A vibrating sound wave does't know if it is part of classical music or jazz. Maybe the biggest difference is between nylon-string acoustic and electric, not "classical" and "jazz." If tone is a function of electronics, then it doesn't matter if you have flat wrist.

Just because you have that nick name doesn't mean you need to try being philosophical. A vibrating sound wave does't know if it is part of classical music or jazz. Yeah, and?
The musical genre really doesn't matter, it's the instrument and the technique. So what is your point? You've made complete pointless messages so far.
The main idea here is classical-TECHNIQUE on electric guitar, since it is a JAZZ forum and I'm interested mostly in jazz, I asked for those kind of players.

Of course the flat wrist matters, just like other aspects of the technique.
Do you think that on electric guitar the attack angle doesn't change the timbre? and even if it was the same tone, one way might be better and easier for one to play with less strain.



I think for last 2 pages the point is being missed. I don't care for these discussions, for some reason every one tries to pick a minor detail and focus on him instead of the real purpose of my post.

[NSJ]

I wonder what that means in English.
-----

I continue to think the communication breakdown is the result of the use of the word "classical technique." Whatever that means in the thread title, nylong strings and steel don't operate quite the same way as metal strings. Right hand technique is about setting strings in motion, and stopping the motion. Unless there is a specific technical question, I can't really say there is a difference between what the opening post called "casual fingerpicking" and "classical." I don't do anything paricularly different for Beatles than I do for Bach.

If you want to fingerpick, then fingerpick. Some jazz has to be played that way, some can be played in multiple ways.

Here is the interview--Keith Jarrett being interviewed by Ethan Iverson--Keith talks a lot on the issues of INTERPRETATION (his classical background) and IMPROVISATION.

the relevant quote on touch and dynamics--

"Somebody asked Gary, you must’ve heard this or seen this, on some video about touch, and what was it like to play with Bill versus Keith.* It was kind of a dangerous question to ask.* And Gary was really good, he said something like, “Well, Bill didn’t have a touch, he had a sound.* It was always the same sound.* Keith modulates the touch depending on what the needs of the music are.” Touch, in jazz, is pretty rare, in the sense that you can choose from a vast array of things.*

EI:* Although, I think the minute you put a ride cymbal on stage, you’ve eliminated sixty percent of what the piano can do.*

KJ:* That’s partly true.* Yeah.

EI:* But I actually think that’s something important to jazz piano in a way.* The sound has that thing that fights against a ride cymbal.*

KJ:* Yeah, it isn’t that players don’t have that sound, and it isn’t that they don’t want that sound.* It’s just that I think there’s been a very much lower consciousness of that element.* You know, in the classical world, some of those people are coming because of my touch.* Whereas, probably that’s true with the jazz people, too, but it might not be the first thing they think of.* They’re thinking of ideas.* Or, pulse.

EI:* My impression is that most jazz pianists would have trouble playing below a certain dynamic consistently.*

KJ:* Classical players never pound, but they also never actually get soft, soft, soft, soft, to the point of risking that the note won’t play.* Benedetti Michelangeli is an exception.*"

The whole interview is FANTASTIC!

Interview with Keith Jarrett - Do The Math

An example of something I was practicing on the issue of dynamics --this time with a pick--keep the velocity of the down and up strokes the same, do not speed up or slow down, but consciously make the sound noticably louder or appreciably softer--by changing the intensity of how you hold the pick.

[fumblefingers]

another real constraint with using classical guitar RH technique on an electric guitar (besides the steel strings shredding your nails to bits), is string spacing.

even a Benedetto or Buscarino with 1 12/16" nut width isn't really wide enough for the full blown classical RH, unless your fingers are as narrow as pencils. you should probably cogitate on that for a bit.

perhaps that's why some guys switch to Buscarino Grand Cabaret's. or Godin's.

(incidentally doesn't Eubanks play with a very wide neck? i seem to recollect that he was quoted somewhere saying something about it... i'll be embarrased if that topic is covered in one of the above vids, which i haven't watched yet.)

[Aristotle]

Just because you have that nick name doesn't mean you need to try being philosophical.

It's my real name, an heirloom from my grandfather. Maybe if I posted as "X" you wouldn't pick that minor detail and be able to focus.

I think for last 2 pages the point is being missed. I don't care for these discussions, for some reason every one tries to pick a minor detail and focus on him instead of the real purpose of my post.

Who knows? Maybe your sense of entitlement to the exact answers you want, your general unappreciative nature, and musical stubborness that make people want to place the cheese just beyond your reach.

[Aristotle]

another real constraint with using classical guitar RH technique on an electric guitar

Wouldn't the strings be just as close together at every wrist angle?

[rvi]

lenny breau, jeff linsky, roland dyens.
not much point in using pure classical technique if u arent playing a classical guitar though. the control over tone and other dynamics it gives doesnt transfer to electric/steel stringed guitars

[fumblefingers]

Wouldn't the strings be just as close together at every wrist angle?

the point is that the strings are too close for RH classical technique. thats why you see so many guys (steel string fingerstyle players) modifying the technique (shorter overall stroke, repeated finger strokes, etc) . things are more confined.

its no accident that the classical guitar nut width is just over 2". its not for fat fingers on the left hand. in fact it makes it harder on the left hand to play almost everything.

[NSJ]

I'm not getting what the controversy is here--I would think we all agree that the differences in guitar, size, strings, nut width, nail length, amplification, would necessitate that the touch and strokes are not exactly the same.

But my goal in learning classical technique is to really FREE the right hand, to really get the fingers working, really develop finger independence and coordination. to be able to go to musical places the pick can't take you.

[whatswisdom]

"Jazz and the Classical Guitar/Theory and Application." By Ken Hatfield.

I recommend anyone interested in the topic to read and apply the materials covered in the book.

There are so many negative posts on this thread--doesn't help anyone...