Playing melody in thirds, fourths, etc.

[AllanAllen]

Are there any ways possible to to direct it back to OP?

Man, I answered OP's question on the first page. Foundational scale work. If he had a grip on that, he wouldn't have to ask the question.

But, as usual, the solution is a lot of work, and people don't like that. They want one quick trick to unlock the fretboard.

[rpjazzguitar]

My impression is that 7alt in a ii V type situation is usually comped without a #11 and with either or both altered 9ths (more commonly the #9 than the b9, or so I think, without really good data on how often who does what).

So, it amounts to a 7(b9 #9 b13) chord. Which will look a lot like the tritone's 13th chord. Meaning, against G7, superimposing xx3446 (think Db13 or G7#9b13) and then maybe moving to xx3444 (G7 b9 b13).

Of course, other choices are justified by the theory, so you could just think, no natural 5, no natural 9.

[Jimmy Smith]

This thread's still going? What are you guys even discussing? :P

[ragman1]

Who knows? lydian_dominant seems to have finished here. So I suppose we can use the thread for anything we like.

For example, did you know that the man-in-the-moon face on the moon is upside down in Australia? Not a lot of people know that.

[ragman1]

Anyway, I'm a bit bored so you can have a nice version of the moon song. Just for fun. I need a tune :-)

[AllanAllen]

This thread's still going? What are you guys even discussing? :P

alt

[Reg]

OK... great examples of what Vanilla is.... all the tunes Allen listed can be played simple... vanilla ... but that's what you will get.... boring vanilla.

Part of playing in a jazz style... is having different levels of harmonic References going on at the same time...

I use Altered harmonic references in almost all tunes.... Easily in all tunes Allen mentioned.

Simple way to explain to most on this thread could be....

Think of basic harmonic rhythm of tune. the basic vanilla rhythmic locations of the basic chords.

Call that harmonic rhythm, (chords and rhythmic pattern played) "A" or 1st layer or reference etc... what most seem to play....

Most jazz players have at least one more layer also going on... (2 harmonic reference going on at the same time).

Simple example... For the basic chords with rhythmically organized pattern.... you approach each "vanilla" chord with some type of functional chord.... start with basic Dom. chord or function... ( 7th chord or constant structure chord... both imply dom. function) .

The simple understanding or theory for using an Altered 7th chords in this approach is Relative and Parallel Minor or Borrowing .... (which eventually will become Modal Interchange.... eventually)

So that could be the Harmonic Door that helps one play more than Vanilla changes, or help to become aware of possible other chords... which become Chord Patterns ... which are easy access to different harmonic references.

Metaphorically... different flavor Ice Cream.

I hear you when you say... 3 notes of basic vanilla changes are great and have worked forever. But to be honest...

you really need to have rhythmic skills and chops or it really gets boring. I'm a good player and do have really high level rhythmic skills and chops.... and it still gets really boring. Your not just playing a couple tunes.

The trick to raising the level of vanilla playing is to be able to expand ... Vanilla and still have Vanilla implied... just feeling like the ensemble is really having a great gig etc...

I know.... only because I hear it a lot. And I'm just average pro... at best and getting old..LOL.

And if you want to get into Jazz Blues.... getting past vanilla is really fun. I work with a few guitar trio rhythm sections... it's fun to watch... everyone is feeling it. At last nights Wed. BB Gig... we had some incredible soloist
sitting in .... There is a differences.

[ragman1]

alt

As you said:

Alt does not mean one thing, that's my hangup.

Then make it mean one thing, like play the shell. Which you're already doing, I believe.

[AllanAllen]

OK... great examples of what Vanilla is.... all the tunes Allen listed can be played simple... vanilla ... but that's what you will get.... boring vanilla.

Part of playing in a jazz style... is having different levels of harmonic References going on at the same time...

I use Altered harmonic references in almost all tunes.... Easily in all tunes Allen mentioned.

Simple way to explain to most on this thread could be....

Think of basic harmonic rhythm of tune. the basic vanilla rhythmic locations of the basic chords.

Call that harmonic rhythm, (chords and rhythmic pattern played) "A" or 1st layer or reference etc... what most seem to play....

Most jazz players have at least one more layer also going on... (2 harmonic reference going on at the same time).

Simple example... For the basic chords with rhythmically organized pattern.... you approach each "vanilla" chord with some type of functional chord.... start with basic Dom. chord or function... ( 7th chord or constant structure chord... both imply dom. function) .

The simple understanding or theory for using an Altered 7th chords in this approach is Relative and Parallel Minor or Borrowing .... (which eventually will become Modal Interchange.... eventually)

So that could be the Harmonic Door that helps one play more than Vanilla changes, or help to become aware of possible other chords... which become Chord Patterns ... which are easy access to different harmonic references.

Metaphorically... different flavor Ice Cream.

I hear you when you say... 3 notes of basic vanilla changes are great and have worked forever. But to be honest...

you really need to have rhythmic skills and chops or it really gets boring. I'm a good player and do have really high level rhythmic skills and chops.... and it still gets really boring. Your not just playing a couple tunes.

The trick to raising the level of vanilla playing is to be able to expand ... Vanilla and still have Vanilla implied... just feeling like the ensemble is really having a great gig etc...

I know.... only because I hear it a lot. And I'm just average pro... at best and getting old..LOL.

And if you want to get into Jazz Blues.... getting past vanilla is really fun. I work with a few guitar trio rhythm sections... it's fun to watch... everyone is feeling it. At last nights Wed. BB Gig... we had some incredible soloist
sitting in .... There is a differences.

So what is the system to get to the second layer? Are you just subbing say Em over a Cmajor7? The iii over the I? What should I change or add to this clip?

Dropbox

[AllanAllen]

As you said:



Then make it mean one thing, like play the shell. Which you're already doing, I believe.

Yeah, I play a R37 shell. But I want to do more, or at least, have knowledge of what else I could do. Like Reg said, it can get tiresome when you are 2 hours into a gig and all the songs are feeling the same.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, I play a R37 shell. But I want to do more, or at least, have knowledge of what else I could do. Like Reg said, it can get tiresome when you are 2 hours into a gig and all the songs are feeling the same.

So maybe a step back before you get into Reg's stuff....

If a chart says D-7, G7, Cmaj7, what would be your go to voicings?

[AllanAllen]

So maybe a step back before you get into Reg's stuff....

If a chart says D-7, G7, Cmaj7, what would be your go to voicings?

Something by the 3rd fret or the 10th fret.

5x35xx
x5546x
xx555x

10x10 10 xx
10 x 9 10 xx
8x99xx

These are the shape I would build off, but I'm just as likely to do x655xx as 5x35xx as D- or go all the way up during a bass solo to

xx12 10 10 13
x x 12 12 12 13
x x x 12 12 12

[pamosmusic]

Something by the 3rd fret or the 10th fret.

5x35xx
x5546x
xx555x

10x10 10 xx
10 x 9 10 xx
8x99xx

These are the shape I would build off, but I'm just as likely to do x655xx as 5x35xx as D- or go all the way up during a bass solo to

xx12 10 10 13
x x 12 12 12 13
x x x 12 12 12

The shells are great.

Part of what Reg is talking about is targeting.

There are complex and very simple ways to do that. Side-slipping tends to be the simplest. And they all need rhythm to make the approaches work, so you might as well start simple and focus on rhythm.

Listen to Red Garland and Wynton Kelly play a tune or form you know (bluesbluesbluesblues) and try to transcribe the rhythms. The voicings don’t matter, except maybe when they seem to change to the next harmony (anticipation, for example).

Just sit with a single rhythm and try the side slip approach chord on different parts of the rhythm. See what works. Rinse repeat.

[mr. beaumont]

Ok, good starting point.

now, what if you ditch the notes on the fifth or sixth string and try to create some voice leading (or, keep a common voice) on the second string (or first)?

So like:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 5 x
x x 5 4 5 x

(Dm9, G13, Cmaj7)

or:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 4 x
x x 2 2 3 x

(Dm9, G7b13 ( or Db9), C6/9)

This is still vanilla, mind you, but this is the better vanilla.

Then get at the rhythmic ideas Peter is talking about with this...

[AllanAllen]

The shells are great.

Part of what Reg is talking about is targeting.

There are complex and very simple ways to do that. Side-slipping tends to be the simplest. And they all need rhythm to make the approaches work, so you might as well start simple and focus on rhythm.

Listen to Red Garland and Wynton Kelly play a tune or form you know (bluesbluesbluesblues) and try to transcribe the rhythms. The voicings don’t matter, except maybe when they seem to change to the next harmony (anticipation, for example).

Just sit with a single rhythm and try the side slip approach chord on different parts of the rhythm. See what works. Rinse repeat.

Yeah, I've done that. Not to say I've mastered it. Red Garland seems to favor a hard swung bop bop on the 1 and 3. But when it's on guitar, it's tiresome. Bop bop, bop bop, three hours later, bop bop, baaaa bop.

Which is why I'm looking for more chords. I went to check out Wynton Kelly the same way. He's got a lot more going on. At least comparing these two tracks. Which of course are completely different tunes.

[ragman1]

This might interest you. Or not :-)

Here's the beginning of the A train. I've played seven different chords for D7. None of them contain a nat 5th. The point is: does it really make that much difference?

D7 - x5453x
D7b5 - x5657
D+ - x5433x
D7 shell - x545xx
D7b9 - x5454
D7#9 - x5456x
D7#5b9/C (no root) - x3434x

[Jimmy Smith]

Ok all you do to further yourself in comping is practice making a melody line on your top note and have the voicings below follow suit. If you're constantly working melodies that are suitable for comping and don't detract from the soloist, you'll never get bored. Practice inversions up and down to the chord progression, practice the inversions with the scale note on top, practice melodic stuff on the top. This also forces you to know your voicings in any location and with any top note. Let me know if you want me to demonstrate this in a video.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I've done that. Not to say I've mastered it. Red Garland seems to favor a hard swung bop bop on the 1 and 3. But when it's on guitar, it's tiresome. Bop bop, bop bop, three hours later, bop bop, baaaa bop.

I think if you were my student … which you’re not, so feel free to ignore … I would tell you that if you’re bored with it or it sounds boring, then you have definitely not done it enough.

Take what simple rhythms you have and adjust one of them so that it anticipates the 1 or the 3. Adjust them both. Put one on the beat and have the other delay by an eighth note, have one delay and one anticipate. Try taking two of those that you like and alternating … one measure this, one measure that, one measure this, etc.

Take simple rhythms and transpose them in their entirety. You’d be surprised how many convincing rhythms you can get by moving the Charleston rhythm around the measure. I transcribed the hits in The Quintessence once and I swear 80% of the rhythms could be considered a Charleston in some form or fashion

[Tal_175]

To me vanilla comping is playing like a backing track. That is almost always using one voicing per chord on the chart (played once or multiple times per bar).
Non-vanilla comping is where the comper makes the performance sound like an orchestral arrangement. Good use of improvised chordal phrases that provide interactive or even sometimes independent harmonized counter lines that work with the solo. The harmonize lines don't always have to be the top voice. That doesn't mean always playing active but knowing how to get the listeners attention with interest without clashing with the soloist.

[pamosmusic]

Ok, good starting point.

now, what if you ditch the notes on the fifth or sixth string and try to create some voice leading (or, keep a common voice) on the second string (or first)?

So like:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 5 x
x x 5 4 5 x

(Dm9, G13, Cmaj7)

or:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 4 x
x x 2 2 3 x

(Dm9, G7b13 ( or Db9), C6/9)

This is still vanilla, mind you, but this is the better vanilla.

Then get at the rhythmic ideas Peter is talking about with this...

Yeah this is where it’s at.

And for what it’s worth … you take say a G13 voicing (FBE) and side slip to it (F# C E#) then, lo and behold, you’ve also happened to play an altered dominant approach chord because it’s a rootless D7#9.

So these chords, plus side slipping, plus rhythm gets you sooooooooooo much with kind of minimal harmony calculus.

Not to say it’s easy … it’s super hard. But it’s *simple*

[AllanAllen]

And for what it’s worth … you take say a G13 voicing (FBE) and side slip to it (F# C E#) then, lo and behold, you’ve also happened to play an altered dominant approach chord because it’s a rootless D7#9.

I think being able to analyze music like this would be helpful. I side slip all the time, but if I saw a chart that had D7#9 G13 squeezed into one beat, I wouldn't know its a side step.

[ragman1]

I'd want to hear the sort of thing you're comping to. No recordings, I suppose? Can you make one on a cell?

[pamosmusic]

I think being able to analyze music like this would be helpful. I side slip all the time, but if I saw a chart that had D7#9 G13 squeezed into one beat, I wouldn't know its a side step.

Well it’s sort of a all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares thing.

But if that’s something you like, A MILLION PERCENT get into those voicings Jeff is talking about. They’re so easy to play that all there is to work on is the fun stuff.

For example you’ll start noticing things like how all your altered dominants are just tritone subs, and things like that. It’s very cool.

[AllanAllen]

I'd want to hear the sort of thing you're comping to. No recordings, I suppose? Can you make one on a cell?

Someone posted a few videos on facebook. Here's the band playing Four. Before anyone asks, it's not my video, so no, I can't put it on YouTube.

Log into Facebook | Facebook

[AllanAllen]

Ok, good starting point.

now, what if you ditch the notes on the fifth or sixth string and try to create some voice leading (or, keep a common voice) on the second string (or first)?

So like:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 5 x
x x 5 4 5 x

(Dm9, G13, Cmaj7)

or:

x x 3 5 5 x
x x 3 4 4 x
x x 2 2 3 x

(Dm9, G7b13 ( or Db9), C6/9)

This is still vanilla, mind you, but this is the better vanilla.

Then get at the rhythmic ideas Peter is talking about with this...

I like how streamlined this is. Close together and easy to play.