Rubato

[Tal_175]

In my understanding rubato means freedom ONLY in the tempo of the music. However it seems to me that when some jazz guitarists play rubato, they also freely add beats to bars. In other words they change the time signature of each bar. Some bars end up being played in 7/4 time, some 5/4 time, some 3/4 time etc.
Should rubato really include adding and dropping beats to bars? Is that what's commonly understood? Or is it just a display of having bad time.

PS. Perhaps you can interpret adding beats as playing subdivisions in 4/4 time with fractional tempo increases (playing 4/4 time 1.25 times faster) but that's just too crazy so I'm not going there.

[Hep To The Jive]

Rubato is a disease of chord melody. More often than not people are trying to hide their lack of groove chops, thinking they sound 'pretty'. It's all BS. Get to the point or don't waste my time. I usually quit listening a tune after a few seconds of rubato. Of course there are some good exceptions. But in general, nah, spare me.

[joe2758]

rubato should be a pushing and pulling of the tempo so that it equals out to the same amount of time.

Edit: that said, Barry Harris said rubato for singers should be like a game of "lose/throw off the piano player."

[Hep To The Jive]

rubato should be a pushing and pulling of the tempo so that it equals out to the same amount of time.

Edit: that said, Barry Harris said rubato for singers should be like a game of "lose/throw off the piano player."

With singers, yes, it's a different story, but true. Here we talking chord melody though.

[joe2758]

Hep, do you do any chord melody stuff? I love your playing that I've heard, but haven't heard any solo guitar. Just interested

[John A.]

In my understanding rubato means freedom ONLY in the tempo of the music. However it seems to me that when some jazz guitarists play rubato, they also freely add beats to bars. In other words they change the time signature of each bar. Some bars end up being played in 7/4 time, some 5/4 time, some 3/4 time etc.
Should rubato really include adding and dropping beats to bars? Is that what's commonly understood? Or is it just a display of having bad time.

PS. Perhaps you can interpret adding beats as playing subdivisions in 4/4 time with fractional tempo increases (playing 4/4 time 1.25 times faster) but that's just too crazy so I'm not going there.

Rubato shouldn't feel like you've dropped or added beats. It should feel like you're pulling at the tempo as a means of expression, the way a singer might. If you're literally adding or dropping beats, that's not rubato. It's what is known as mistachhato, though some prefer the term fucchtupato.

John

[John A.]

Rubato is a disease of chord melody. More often than not people are trying to hide their lack of groove chops, thinking they sound 'pretty'. It's all BS. Get to the point or don't waste my time. I usually quit listening a tune after a few seconds of rubato. Of course there are some good exceptions. But in general, nah, spare me.

Rubato done right doesn't bother me. What pretty much always does bother me is the way many guitarists play melody notes late (compared to the chord or baseline they're playing) because they can't get to them in time (and I'm as guilty as anyone else when it comes to that). Some people try to excuse that as rubato, but it ain't.

John

[pingu]

Rubato is a disease of chord melody. More often than not people are trying to hide their lack of groove chops, thinking they sound 'pretty'. It's all BS. Get to the point or don't waste my time. I usually quit listening a tune after a few seconds of rubato. Of course there are some good exceptions. But in general, nah, spare me.

Hallelujah !

if it don't have a pulse , it's dead ....

[eh6794-2.0]

Rubato is a disease of chord melody. More often than not people are trying to hide their lack of groove chops, thinking they sound 'pretty'. It's all BS. Get to the point or don't waste my time. I usually quit listening a tune after a few seconds of rubato. Of course there are some good exceptions. But in general, nah, spare me.

Gawd, I wish I could LIKE this 100 times. I have no problem when a real, proven pro plays rubato, but most people rely on it and when they do it, it still doesn't sound right.

I have said it 1000 times and I will say it again, you have to stand before you walk. Get a metronome to help you internalize the beat. Do the Lage Lund thing where you turn the tempo down so you only hear a beat every measure or two... or four. Then, after a year or two of that, learn how to make a groove when you play, even when you are playing ballads.

Cool harmony does not make you sound like a good jazz guitarist, your groove (swing or whatever you want to call it) does

[Hep To The Jive]

Hep, do you do any chord melody stuff? I love your playing that I've heard, but haven't heard any solo guitar. Just interested

I did some videos, but I never happy with any of them lol. I used to post a lot on instagram, 1 min snippets, just for fun. But let me see.... Somewhere between John Scofield and Jonathan Stout is my inspiration.

Damn, as I type this, I realize I don't have an access to youtube, because my VPN is constantly blocked for the past few days. I live in China now, enough said. When I have a chance I post a video.

[grahambop]

Didn’t you do Stompin’ at the Savoy for the practical standards thread a few months ago? I enjoyed that.

[Hep To The Jive]

Didn’t you do Stompin’ at the Savoy for the practical standards thread a few months ago? I enjoyed that.

I think so, but I'm not sure! Thanks though, I hope it was mine.

[grahambop]

This is the one I was thinking of.

[eh6794-2.0]

This is the one I was thinking of.

Pay close attention to how your right hand keeps time with a steady rhythm.

[grahambop]

Of course this video should not be in this thread as it contains no trace of rubato!

[Tal_175]

Rubato shouldn't feel like you've dropped or added beats. It should feel like you're pulling at the tempo as a means of expression, the way a singer might. If you're literally adding or dropping beats, that's not rubato. It's what is known as mistachhato, though some prefer the term fucchtupato.

John

Compared to piano players, I think it easier for guitar players to add/drop beats when playing chord melody. When alternating chord punches and solo lines, there is less room for melodic ideas to develop which leads to playing over barlines. That's fine when done because that's how one hears the line. But when it happens due to "congestion", it demands more concentration to not add/drop beats.

[Hep To The Jive]

This is the one I was thinking of.

Yea thanks, it's a good one in terms of keeping the steady beat, I think that's the best thing I do. Not liking the improv part very much. Of course, no rubato from me, what am I doing here

[Hep To The Jive]

Ok, I'll post this on my own. Maybe a little a bit of rubato in the beginning? Thats the most I can do!

[matt.guitarteacher]

In my understanding rubato means freedom ONLY in the tempo of the music. However it seems to me that when some jazz guitarists play rubato, they also freely add beats to bars. In other words they change the time signature of each bar. Some bars end up being played in 7/4 time, some 5/4 time, some 3/4 time etc.
Should rubato really include adding and dropping beats to bars? Is that what's commonly understood? Or is it just a display of having bad time.

PS. Perhaps you can interpret adding beats as playing subdivisions in 4/4 time with fractional tempo increases (playing 4/4 time 1.25 times faster) but that's just too crazy so I'm not going there.

No, no and no .

In my mind, there are several things going on.

First of all, there's real rubato, where you're playing an actual four beats worth of notes, while stretching time one way or another etc.

Second, there's the RHYTHMIC abstraction of time, by phrasing music on different/smaller/larger subdivisions of the beat "as if" it's the original phrasing, giving the EFFECT of playing ahead/behind, loose, "out of time" etc. A lot of these are very easily heard when rhythmic subdivisions of the beatare more filled out.

So if a player (or combination of different players) are playing something on nearly every subdivision of the beat or at least more directly REFERENCING the beat, it's more easily heard. But advanced players playing ballads are very often disguising this as much as possible, subtracting information which gives direct reference to underlying rhythmic subdivisions etc.

************

Now, to a separate set of problems in my opinion:

Guitarists are often largely self taught and don't hear the underlying subdivisions well, especially when there's less rhythmic "information" and the arrangement is more sparse. Even basic classically trained pianists get thousands of hours on complex subdivision exercises by simply playing repertory which is written for two hands. The two hands could be conceived as one entity for simplifying counting and subdivision of the beat, but you also get the aural and kinesthetic reps in playing different polyrhythms and syncopations in different types of rhythmic structures. Same for drummers etc. Honestly, even horn players probably are a little ahead of us in this regard, because they just studied more, at an earlier age, in school.

Anyway, to my ears , I hear a lot of guitarists who are basically misinterpreting those first two types of rubato as being either "completely out of time" or adding beats etc, having not fully explored really "filling things out" on smaller subdivisions of the beat.

[mr. beaumont]

Rubato is like abstract art. Just as your attempt at a realistic portrait that sucks isn't "abstract," rubato also needs to be intentional and handled carefully. It ain't "rubato" if your time sucks.

[John A.]

Rubato is like abstract art. Just as your attempt at a realistic portrait that sucks isn't "abstract," rubato also needs to be intentional and handled carefully. It ain't "rubato" if your time sucks.

Eggz-Ackley!

John

[christianm77]

Learn to play in time. Add rubato to taste.

Unaccompanied playing is a real tough one though. Easy to add in or drop a beat. I record myself and listen back as part of my practice. When I hear myself do this, I try to focus on learning the tune, or the line better so I keep the pulse going throughout my playing, but in the heat of the moment, it does happen even to some of the greats.

[Tal_175]

Learn to play in time. Add rubato to taste.

Unaccompanied playing is a real tough one though. Easy to add in or drop a beat. I record myself and listen back as part of my practice. When I hear myself do this, I try to focus on learning the tune, or the line better so I keep the pulse going throughout my playing, but in the heat of the moment, it does happen even to some of the greats.

I think that's it. I was trying to clarify whether there is some loose definition of rubato where adding beats is OK and intentional.

[christianm77]

Ok, I'll post this on my own. Maybe a little a bit of rubato in the beginning? Thats the most I can do!

Hey Hep, if you haven't done it yet you should do a trio album with double bass and eclectic percussion, that tele with the bigsby and as much fender reverb as you can handle playing those sorts of tunes. I'd buy it!

[christianm77]

One exercise I do a lot is play the melody, just the melody, record and listen back or maybe accompany. Listen out for added beats etc. Generally, the better I know a tune, the less mistakes I make with the timing.... Stop press!

Once that's done, it's easy to add a bit of clothing to the melody, and build up from there.