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I was listening do this today and thought...why do all these people say "don't play bass notes with a bass player or they'll be pissed!"
It sounds nice in this case.
Barry Harris brought it up one time and was like "Not ONCE did a bass player tell me I was playing too low, dig that, not ONCE." And he does play in that register that is supposedly off limits.
I skipped learning drop 2 chords on the bottom strings because I thought "well that's off limits anyway."
I think if it's muddy there it's a tone issue.
I think the problem is greatly exaggerated.
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05-20-2019 08:22 AM
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When I joined my current band, the bass player told me "now we've got three bass players". Since then, I've stayed out of his way. The pianist is still all over the place, though
The electric bass has more overtones than the acoustic double-bass. What works for Tal's very tasteful playing - no druns, and a reticent bass player, too - doesn't necessarily work in a more contemporary setting.
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nothing always necessarily works, like i said i think the point is just over emphasized. I don't know anything about modern.
Originally Posted by docsteve
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I really like this article from Ethan Iverson:
Theory of Harmony | DO THE M@TH
Here’s a list of pianists that regularly play a root in the bass whether a bass player is present or not:
Duke Ellington
Teddy Wilson
Earl Hines
Art Tatum
Bud Powell
Mary Lou Williams
Horace Silver
Ahmad Jamal
Oscar Peterson
Herbie Nichols
Randy Weston
McCoy Tyner
Jaki Byard
Geri Allen
Here’s a list of pianists that never play a root in the bass:
Bill Evans
jazz students
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Not to be too obvious, but piano is not guitar.
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yeah those guitar root notes are nasty Originally Posted by ronjazz
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Really depends on the tone and how you play.
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If you have a good percussive attack you can play any voicings you want. Better strum than pluck though.
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From my old book of musical terms:
"bass"- the lowest tone in a chord
(not necessarily the root, but the lowest in the harmony which may be changing quickly when walking, approaching, tri-toning, chromaticizing, etc.)
"root" - the lowest note in a chord in the fundamental position
This misunderstood distinction is the source of much contention... if the bassist plays "bass" the playing of roots by others is fine.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
If the bass player all of a sudden began to play a solo during your solo, and it wasn't in a frame/context where it fit, how would you feel?
Or if you played chords during a soloist, and all of a sudden a piano player began hammering fourth voicing chords louder than McCoy himself?
Not only would it be annoying as hell, furthermore, going back to the bass, you would also limit the bass player in his ability to be creative and move around the way he wants.
Maybe he wanted to anchor a pedal point and you did not get it, and continued to play the roots in all chords, that would certainly ruin the experience and effect intended by the bass player.
Not only will the bass player be pissed, but also the rest of the band.
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Of course it can be done. Freddie Green did it for decades.
It can be done well, but it also can be done badly. And, like a lot of things, it's easier to do badly.
Some thoughts:
The register can overlap. If you have a G on the E string at the bottom of a Gmaj7, that's the high string on the bass played open.
You might play a G for two beats and he might play an A on the second beat. Seems to me that his movement in the bassline is going to sound better if the guitar is out of his way, playing an octave or so higher.
But, it also depends on the EQ and how staccato you play. The problem intermediate archtop players often have is that they lose control over the volume of the lower frequency information. Sometimes it's because the guitar is moving towards feedback and it gets boomy. To my ear, this makes the band sound muddy. Do it with a Stratocaster and it might not be as big an issue.
If you play a 4 note chord on the lowest four strings of the guitar and then play the same chord voiced with the root an octave lower than the rest of the chord, you might find one muddy and the other clear. Same thing happens when the bass note is by itself in a lower octave.
Some bassists hang out in the lower octave more than others. On a bad night, I have felt like saying, "you're playing bass like somebody else was playing bass". Meaning, they're so high up the neck that there ought to be somebody staying home in the lower octave. And, there's the issue of their EQ as well.
Overall, I think avoiding the 5th and 6th strings is a good strategy. High up the neck, the notes may be high enough, but guitars tend toward more intonation issues up there on the lowest strings. Two note voicings, 3rd and 7ths on the D and G strings often work very well. The bass is lower, the solo is higher and the only thing you have to worry about is the piano, if any.
The pianist, especially a busy one who plays chords in the left hand, adds to the difficulty. Most pianists don't feel obligated to leave space for the guitar. So, the guitar spends the night trying to avoid conflict with both bass and piano. A busy pianist comping stick and jab and a bassist who likes playing all the way up the neck, and it's potentially a long muddy night.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
That's when I clean my spit valve.
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Whether it's a problem tends to also depend on the touchiness of the bassist. Some bassists get quite out of joint about it, defending their harmonic turf as it were, some are quite mellow. I think it also depends on whether the guitarist's use of the bass notes in the chords is making its own bassline that he has to work with or against. Then go listen to Bucky Pizzarelli play with a seven string and a bassist. They're in the same register frequently and yet Bucky seems to not get in anybody's way with it.
Tone is a factor too. The guitarist favoring a very dark wet-blanket-over-the-amp type of sound is maybe likely be more annoying to the bassist than a guitarist with a lighter brighter tone. Maybe that's part of why Bucky gets away with- his tone tends to be pretty bright.
If I am playing with both a pianist and a bassist, that's a good time to sit out and get a drink at the bar. Unless there aren't any horns or a vocalist, they don't need me up there. Indeed, the gig that I realized it was time for me to leave my band- and maybe stop gigging- was when I sat out to let a pianist sit in and realized I was having far more fun in the audience listening than I was on stage playing.
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How about we talk about how to really comp for a bass player when the bass takes a solo--and not get in the way.
Sometimes I try to do shell voicings in a higher register--using the b and high e strings to guide my range.
Sometimes I try to use those octave melodic fragments that pianists love so much when they support a bassist (think Bill Evans)
All in all, you really have to get off the chart and open your ears for a bass solo.
Here's what Peter Martin and Adam Maness had to say about the matter:
I think respecting the bass is crucial--the bass is the rudder to the whole band. A bassist, even more than a drummer, can make or break a band. I know, I know Bill Frisell and Gilad Hex played in bands without a bassist (I'm not talking organ trio stuff--that's still bass to me).
So listen, and get friendly with the bassist. Buy him or her dinner. Take him or her out to lunch. Carl Allen did a workshop in UNO where he said that the bassist and drummer should be best friends--and know each other's favorite musicians on their respective instruments. Let's take that a step further, the rhythm section should be an inseparable family unit.
RE: Freddie Green. He only played chords with notes on the low e when he played in very small outfits. In big band settings, he relied on the D and G string (mostly the D string, but the G pops more). James Chirillo was all about explaining the guitar as a "tenor line" in a swing era big band.
Allan Reuss also stayed away from drop 2 only voicings as far as I know (Jonathan Stout can chime in and help verify). Ruess was a student of George Van Eps and GVE used the bass strings of the guitar in a different fashion (I'm talking pre 7 string era)
Granted, all of this goes out the window if you are like me. I haven't played in a band since my high school days. When I play out, I attend jam sessions--and I'm lucky if there's a house bassist on the regular.
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In groove based music, there's usually a way to contribute something even with the bass and piano being busy. Originally Posted by Cunamara
But, in styles which have less repetitive rhythms, if the piano is playing stick and jab, and won't move away from it, I often can't figure out anything worth doing.
Some pianists' styles naturally leave more space. Then it's easier.
My idea, shared by some pianists, is to try to make one comping pattern out of the two instruments. That's fun to do too. You have to leave predictable space for the other guy.
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In the stick and jab situation, do what Wes did.
A lot of people forget that Wes used octaves as an accompaniment device (especially with Wynton Kelly in the band) as well as a tool for improvisation.
Pick an upbeat, and hit an octave line. On a blues, I try to pedal the 5th all the way through. On paper it sounds annoying and repetitive. But when you're playing that octave line, and it sits just right in the mix, you end up driving the band.
You kind of operate like a shout chorus.
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"I think respecting the bass is crucial--the bass is the rudder to the whole band. A bassist, even more than a drummer, can make or break a band. I know, I know Bill Frisell and Gilad Hex played in bands without a bassist (I'm not talking organ trio stuff--that's still bass to me).
So listen, and get friendly with the bassist. Buy him or her dinner. Take him or her out to lunch. Carl Allen did a workshop in UNO where he said that the bassist and drummer should be best friends--and know each other's favorite musicians on their respective instruments. Let's take that a step further, the rhythm section should be an inseparable family unit"
very well said, a famous saxophonist once told me, "man, if you got a good bass player and drummer that work well together you're all set"
Even though I've mainly played in organ trios/quartets for quite some time now, I still have a problem w/some [not all] organists overplaying when comping. this usually occurs in a quartet setting when the tenor is playing, some organists play too many chords which leaves little use for a guitarist like me. A lot of the cats I play w/ are older than me and many didn't work regularly w/guitar players back in the day, it was usually a tenor instead, so they could play as many chords as they wanted. As a result a lot of them just comp like they're playing w/ a tenor and don't even realize there's another chordal based instrument on the bandstand.
Over the yrs. I've gotten pretty good @ filling in the places they're not so it doesn't sound busy, but it can be quite the balancing act and it's always refreshing when I get to play w/ an organist that's more concerned w/holding down the bass line and adding chords for color, etc, really frees up a guitar player to comp w/out fear of clashing.
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I think it depends on the size of the group and where the guitar needs to fit. If it sounds good, it is good. As a rule, I like to leave the bass to the bassist and find my own space. With keys, it gets muddy quick if folks don't have big ears.
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In general this rule comes from role/function tradition in a group - you play that part of a tewture/I play that... obviously if someone play bass a general rool for chor/rythm player is to be in the middle/high register and the soloist high/middle.
A general rule means there can be exception... depending on timber and range of the instruments and how they mix...
But basic jazz approach was pretty simplistic in that sense... it does not mean that one cannot play chords in low register... but one must be ready that it will sound a bit out of tradition, will add a specific colour to the overall sound...
Also I think there can be functional bass playing... and just low register playing... those are two different thinks.
If guitarist plays just chords in the lower register and these chords contain a root even but sound more like integral chords then it may be ok... (not always... it depends but it may work)
But if the guitarist tries to plays bass notes functionally to lead harmony in the bass ... this can make problem... also not always --- but it may require some special coordination between players and sounds more some specific coception....
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the bass will play a octave lower than a guitar is this corect. and a double Bass is two octaves lower. Now I understand that a Bass can play in the guitars octave range and a guitar can play in a bass octave range. what I dont get is why would eather want to play in the others octave range if they are playing together. I could down tune a 7 string guitar to be closer to the bass octaves and i could up tune a 5 string bass to be in more of the guitars octave range. And then make a avantgarde style of music.
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Electric bass and double bass are usually the same pitch (both one octave below the guitar).
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Originally Posted by wintermoon
as a bassist, I wholeheartedly endorse this advice. definitely buy your rhythm section lunch.
One of my great loves about playing bass in a jazz band is hooking up with the drummer and powering the whole band. It's the best!
On comping for a bass solo, I'd say it's the same as comping for anyone else: job number one is to LISTEN. Is what you're playing supportive and is your accompaniment making the music better, or, are you making the soloist work harder? Whenever I've heard someone comp poorly, it's almost always because they aren't really listening, they are focused on "playing the changes", or their voicings, or time feel, or whatever else, but what they aren't focused on is listening to and supporting the music that's happening in the moment.
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First thing to do in putting together a group is to make sure the bassist and drummer both have good time and love each other.
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Yeah that's the sort of shit they tell you haha. Originally Posted by joe2758
Like most of these things that are presented as rules, they are at best helpful guidelines for inexperienced players. They do not include the variety of comping practices elsewhere... If you are into Bud Powell, McCoy Tyner or Fats Waller these 'rules' are obviously inappropriate.
This stuff depends a lot on the style, the type of sound you are using and so on.
The only real rule is - use your ears. Develop flexibility....
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In terms of comping, one of the best lessons I got was early on from Dave Cliff.... He said 'play where the soloist isn't'
Best advice ever.
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