I'm stuck in music theory

[matt.guitarteacher]

Wow I started doing just that for myself a few months ago.
well i did voicing on strings 1-4, 2-5 and 6-432 not remember why i didnt do 5-321, maybe i should do that now.
Mostly it worked out ok for 4 note voicings except when I don't use a form or two for a while i completely forget it and have to work it all out against from scratch, my memory isn't good at all!
Then i found m6 and m7b5 shapes are the same and then noticed other similarities ie b7b9(no root) and m7b5, so my fingers remember all the shapes but my mind has to tell them what the shape is called.
Seems kind of round about but I'm sure if i understood more chord theory it would make more sense.

Also I have a question about doing extended voicing such as 9th 11th 13th, My question is when you cant play all the notes because of lack of fingers/strings , (especially because have to often add the melody note) is there an order of dispensability? i.e.
1. you drop the 5th (only if it isn't altered)
2. in 13th chords the 11th and 9th are dispensable.
3. if the 9th is present the Root may go?
etc.
[these are probably wrong - just my own made up examples]

I just work on playing solo arrangements, but very basic, just of the chords + melody of simple tunes, hopefully one day I'll be able to solo improvise on them too, or maybe not. :/

Common approach is to work drop-2's etc but replace a tone. Replace root with 9 for 9ths. Then 13th for 5th, 11th for 3rd. You can get the same results by simply working chord subs though. Substitute the diatonic chord a 3rd above or 3rd below your chord of the moment, and you get a 9th chord or 6th chord respectively, for example. This was recommended by a forum pro, and makes a lot of sense, since you need to do this work anyway... and to get you well on your way to substitutions with altered/melodic minor etc. Life is short.

[Boston Joe]

Also I have a question about doing extended voicing such as 9th 11th 13th, My question is when you cant play all the notes because of lack of fingers/strings , (especially because have to often add the melody note) is there an order of dispensability? i.e.
1. you drop the 5th (only if it isn't altered)
2. in 13th chords the 11th and 9th are dispensable.
3. if the 9th is present the Root may go?
etc.
[these are probably wrong - just my own made up examples]

I just work on playing solo arrangements, but very basic, just of the chords + melody of simple tunes, hopefully one day I'll be able to solo improvise on them too, or maybe not. :/

As a rule, you don't want to drop the 3rd or 7th*. So for a 9th chord, you'd omit the root, and play the 9. For a 13 chord, you'd drop the 5 and play the 13. You'd also drop the 5 if you're playing a #11. If you want to play both the 13 AND the #11, you'll need to get a little creative.

By the time you get to the point of working these out (i.e. after you've mastered the basic forms), You should have a pretty good sense of what you want to hear, and figuring out how to get it isn't too hard.

*There are exceptions, obviously. You'd drop the 3 for a sus chord, and there are always times when a different voicing might sound better. Drop-2s integrate nicely with stacked 4ths on the same string set.

A good book for this stuff is Mel Bay's Complete Book of Harmony, Theory and Voicing by Bret Wilmott. It gets into a lot of the enharmonic substitutions you can do with this stuff (i.e., a rootless 9 chord can also be a m7b5 or a m6 depending on context).

[PMB]

Blackraven, the best way to learn all the inversions is to play them over a tune that features all the basic seventh chord types. This post of mine (#19) illustrates drop 2 & 3 voicings over the progression found in the first eight bars of Autumn Leaves:

Jazz Chords Revelation

You don't have to learn these in the stated order (they're set out in a logical manner from lowest to highest string groups). Follow Boston Joe's advice and start with drop 2s from the 4th string. I would then tackle drop 2s from the 5th string, drop 3s from the 6th, drop 3s from the 5th and finally, drop 2s from the 6th. Play one set a day, paying attention to the voice-leading between each move and I guarantee you'll be flying through these in no time!

[Boston Joe]

Blackraven, the best way to learn all the inversions is to play them over a tune that features all the basic seventh chord types. This post of mine (#19) illustrates drop 2 & 3 voicings over the progression found in the first eight bars of Autumn Leaves:

Jazz Chords Revelation

You don't have to learn these in the stated order (they're set out in a logical manner from lowest to highest string groups). Follow Boston Joe's advice and start with drop 2s from the 4th string. I would then tackle drop 2s from the 5th string, drop 3s from the 6th, drop 3s from the 5th and finally, drop 2s from the 6th. Play one set a day, paying attention to the voice-leading between each move and I guarantee you'll be flying through these in no time!

Autumn Leaves is a great tune to practice these on. Everything is in one key, so you really get a sense of the relationships.

[blackraven]

Blackraven, the best way to learn all the inversions is to play them over a tune that features all the basic seventh chord types. This post of mine (#19) illustrates drop 2 & 3 voicings over the progression found in the first eight bars of Autumn Leaves:

Jazz Chords Revelation

You don't have to learn these in the stated order (they're set out in a logical manner from lowest to highest string groups). Follow Boston Joe's advice and start with drop 2s from the 4th string. I would then tackle drop 2s from the 5th string, drop 3s from the 6th, drop 3s from the 5th and finally, drop 2s from the 6th. Play one set a day, paying attention to the voice-leading between each move and I guarantee you'll be flying through these in no time!

Thanks a lot!
I spent some time the last night trying to get those drop2 7th on 1-4 under my fingers.
Really, it`s the best way to accomplish it. Since I`m not a profeessional musician and I have other duties and hobbies I can`t spent a lot of time struggling with 100500 chords at the time without any logic explanation of it. So for me it`s more like "each day spend 15 minutes playing standards, 15 min learning chords, 15 min watching some guitar videos on YT and listen to the jazz guitar greats all day long ))"

and I`ll definetely have a look on that exercise of yours, PMB, but just a bit later. Step by step. Now I`m on drop2 7th on 1-4 strings ))

[benjaminjoe]

Thanks a lot!
I spent some time the last night trying to get those drop2 7th on 1-4 under my fingers.
Really, it`s the best way to accomplish it. Since I`m not a profeessional musician and I have other duties and hobbies I can`t spent a lot of time struggling with 100500 chords at the time without any logic explanation of it. So for me it`s more like "each day spend 15 minutes playing standards, 15 min learning chords, 15 min watching some guitar videos on YT and listen to the jazz guitar greats all day long ))"

and I`ll definetely have a look on that exercise of yours, PMB, but just a bit later. Step by step. Now I`m on drop2 7th on 1-4 strings ))

A book that helped me immensely is Roger Edison's
Jazz Rhythm Guitar. It presents the material in a clear and non overwhelming way and it really gives you the best chords for your time. I say this having tried dozens of chords bibles etc. Less is more

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[blackraven]

A book that helped me immensely is Roger Edison's
Jazz Rhythm Guitar. It presents the material in a clear and non overwhelming way and it really gives you the best chords for your time. I say this having tried dozens of chords bibles etc. Less is more

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Thanks! I got this book and I`ll have a look.
Too much information. Have to look around and figure out the way of jedi )

[benjaminjoe]

Thanks! I got this book and I`ll have a look.
Too much information. Have to look around and figure out the way of jedi )

Do you ever experience boredom while practicing? This might be a good sign you are really assimilating whatever you're working on

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[blackraven]

Do you ever experience boredom while practicing? This might be a good sign you are really assimilating whatever you're working on

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Yes, I do. It depends on what I`m practicing at the moment. But when I see all this information you guys have given me here I feel way too excited ) And wanna practice more and more, often and faster!!!11 )

[BFrench]

Hey blackraven, I'm in a most similar situation. At this point in my learning process I much prefer actually watching a video as opposed to reading countless books. The problem here is finding someone who's really good at teaching and doesn't get so involved in the theory part that it becomes quite daunting or an almost impossible task for some people. I'm sure you're familiar with Frank Vignola.

This being said and in my humble opinion there isn't anyone better at this than Frank. His videos are incredibly understandable regardless of a person's knowledge. Frank is an excellent player! Just a suggestion but he has quite a lot of teaching/learning videos on Truefire site and at least two on chord melody that are simply great and understandable. One is 1-2-3 Jazz Chord Melody and Essentials: Jazz Chord Etudes that have been invaluable for me. Also Modern Method For Guitar is an extensive study where you basically start at the beginning again. I just can't say enough things good about Frank's teaching methods. I'm 65 yrs old, been playing for years and just within the last 4-5 yrs really took an interest in learning more and as you know, music is a lifetime study and learning process.

I may be preaching to the choir here and you may already be familiar with Frank and Truefire. If so, well nevermind. If not, definitely check out Frank and then there's Sheryl Bailey & Mimi Fox also on Truefire both incredible players. The first month is free on Truefire, the best little investment I've ever made.

[blackraven]

A book that helped me immensely is Roger Edison's Jazz Rhythm Guitar.

I have had a look at it. A good amount of substitutions, great stuff, thanks!

Hey blackraven, I'm in a most similar situation. At this point in my learning process I much prefer actually watching a video as opposed to reading countless books.

I`m not a fan of thick books too, actually. I love watching YT jazz guitar tutorials.

I'm sure you're familiar with Frank Vignola.
This being said and in my humble opinion there isn't anyone better at this than Frank.

I have 1-2-3-CM and frankly speaking for me it a bit like "100500 chords". Yes, there is the Formula but you "just" have to remember a chord for each root note with a note needed on the voice string or smth like that. Maybe I`m not accurate here, please correct me. But I`d like to understand the idea, not to remember stuff.

[BFrench]

Maybe I`m not accurate here, please correct me. But I`d like to understand the idea, not to remember stuff.

Have you checked out Sheryl & Mimi ...

[blackraven]

Have you checked out Sheryl & Mimi ...

Just have it done. Mimi is better IMHO. Gonna get her Jazz Anatomy.
Btw just have spent half an hour playing drop2 7th and trying to figure out how to make all other types of it and it turned out that I really can construct "on fly" M7 and m7 easily now knowing just 7th. Tried to play Leaves - first 4 chords - on one fret - funny!! It definitely opens new horizonts ) And some chords sound appropriate here, some don`t - so it`s up to me to pick up a grip.

[artcore]

I know its common sense but, learn tunes you really like......work through the arrangements of others slowly....if you can refer back to the original score.....see how the arrangement was assembled.....work them out note for note or close.....its a never ending journey for me.....I will never know it all......so what......triads are beautiful used in many tunes....it takes time...and you will improve if you stick with it..........love Ted Greene's material......also I believe Robert Conti's material is very helpful...........Somebody made a comment some years back that playing solo guitar in the jazz style is an art form in itself...........I do believe that......

[pingu]

Only way to learn and remember is to use it. Just memorizing raw data like chord grip give you no point of reference to the sound or how it fits into making music. Sorry but learning tune is the answer to everything, just learning chords forms is like buying a dictionary to learn to speak, No, you learned to speak by speaking to others, you learn music by playing music.

Spot on doc ....
The tune itself teaches you ...

Its really 'melody chord' ie melody first
Learn the melody then fit some harmony under it