Anyone not care for chord melody?

[Nate Miller]

I'm hearing a lot of complaining about solo guitar and chord melodies.

guitar players that don't enjoy solo guitar?

You guys are a buncha single line playing bitches, that's what the problem is

Solo guitar is the top of the mountain and you know it


so go shed some triads and quit yer complaining

those tunes aren't going to play themselves, you know

[christianm77]

Solo jazz guitar probably isn't something I listen to a lot, but when I do I prefer stuff that's a bit honest and simple rather than hyper arranged and clever.

I really like Peter Bernsteins solo playing, and Jim Mullen did a nice solo album. Neither are fingerstylists and enjoy that.

For me the most swinging solo guitar cut ever is still teddy bunns take on King Porter Stomp. Check it out!

There were a few great solo guitar records cut in the 30s though...

Tbh I'm not sure if it's a guitar thing... I don't listen to much solo piano either.

[Dave70]

It's something very much the new school in jazz guitar, people like Marc Ribot, Ben Monder, Mick Goodrick are doing a lot in very different directions exploring the possibilities. It's not Joe Pass.
I find it inspiring
David

That Bill Frisell clip is 27 years old, new school isn't so new anymore lol. But it sounds pretty fresh... or am I getting old?

[Nate Miller]

I've always liked solo playing. I even have a record of Lee Konitz playing solo sax.

Yes, I actually like saxophone solo.

my favorite is piano solo. I grew up with Art Tatum solo piano records, but my favorite solo guitar player is George Van Epps. Johnny Smith is a close second.


all my life, I have always had other people to play with, so for me playing solo is a special thing because I usually play these tunes in a trio or quartet

so to have full control of the horizontal and the vertical is nice

but that's just it. I like playing solo, so I also like listening to other people playing solo.

[lawson-stone]

Disliking solo jazz guitar is certainly a leisure for those who have musicians to play with. For people living in areas where there just aren't other jazz players to sit in with, or (in my case), the only jazz players around have no time for amateur players, solo jazz guitar is a necessity imposed on us by life. I refuse to perform live as a jazz guitar karaoke player with backup tracks, so lacking other musicians, I am forced to play solo. Now, my choices become "solo single-line" or "solo with harmonized melodies," aka "chord melody."

Any suggestions from the chord melody haters?

[destinytot]

Any suggestions from the chord melody haters?

I'm not a 'hater' (I like solo guitar), but here are two suggestions.
1. Sing.
2. Write for 'classical' players - hooray for amateurs​ ​- and take the band out of the box.

[destinytot]

Any suggestions from the chord melody haters?

I'm not a 'hater' (I like solo guitar), but here are two suggestions.
1. Sing.
2. Write for 'classical' players - hooray for amateurs​ - and take the band out of the box.

[Nate Miller]

Any suggestions from the chord melody haters?

I got one for em, Lawson, but there might be young children reading this forum

[NSJ]

For me, It's become far more important to learn the tunes then to work out an arrangement. I think of the process as spontaneously harmonizing melodies. That presents an infinite number of possibilities, instead of being chained to one particular arrangement.

That also means that I have worked on and still continue to work on harmonizing lines in the practice room: by intervals, dyads, triads, (closed, open and spread ), 4 note voicings.

it also means emphasizing the horizontal nature of scales up-and-down the fingerboard as opposed to across the fingerboard. The former are much easier to harmonize, at least visually. Although work must be done on both.

It's the latter, the 4 note voicings, that I try to keep to a minimum. Because those are the ones that tend to bog the tune down.

Also, using a basic modicum of counterpoint, or two line movement.

Sid Jacobs has a mini comedy routine about guitarists and their sad and pathetic desire to impress piano players with their "chord melodies " ( he actually says that word in quotes in the most nerdy voice possible. ).

Basically, he says that practically every other musician responds to the aforementioned "chord melodies" in the most paternal way possible, like congratulating a small child for spelling his or her name. .

when you realize that this is the reality, you got to figure out a better way of doing things.

I think the horrible concept of "chord melodies" is an attempt to bridge the conventional guitar gap that exists in the rock 'n' roll world between "lead" and "rhythm" players .

That distinction should not exist in the Jazz world, where even the comping should be spontaneous, dynamic and represent movement in terms of a developed line.

One thing I learned from Tim Lerch, who is a very nice guy, is to break down the artificial wall between comping and chord solos.

I would advise people to look him up.

[rickshapiro]

I am unsure why we even call it chord melody? Would that dislike extend to solo classical guitar or any other solo guitar genre where chords and melodies are played together?

I am even unsure that without chord melody anyone would even listen to solo guitar. What is the alternative, someone sits there and strums chords, or just plays the melody or just solos?

Maybe the question comes down to whether you like solo guitar?

[goldenwave77]

Sid Jacobs has a mini comedy routine about guitarists and their sad and pathetic desire to impress piano players with their "chord melodies " (he actually says that word in quotes in the most nerdy voice possible. ).

And Barry Galbraith who played both guitar and piano said that guitar was far, far more difficult to play. So...I don't get why pianists should feel particularly "chosen" because they chose another instrument where they get to use 8 or 10 fingers with a note arrangement which doesn't change...for many cultures in history, and in certain locales, pianos were just not available, and without the guitar, entire types of music might never have developed.

Basically, he (Jacobs) says that practically every other musician responds to the aforementioned "chord melodies" in the most paternal way possible, like congratulating a small child for spelling his or her name.

According to this logic, a sax or trumpet player can't even spell "IT", much less their name.

[christianm77]

For me, It's become far more important to learn the tunes then to work out an arrangement. I think of the process as spontaneously harmonizing melodies. That presents an infinite number of possibilities, instead of being chained to one particular arrangement.

That also means that I have worked on and still continue to work on harmonizing lines in the practice room: by intervals, dyads, triads, (closed, open and spread ), 4 note voicings.

it also means emphasizing the horizontal nature of scales up-and-down the fingerboard as opposed to across the fingerboard. The former are much easier to harmonize, at least visually. Although work must be done on both.

It's the latter, the 4 note voicings, that I try to keep to a minimum. Because those are the ones that tend to bog the tune down.

Also, using a basic modicum of counterpoint, or two line movement.

Sid Jacobs has a mini comedy routine about guitarists and their sad and pathetic desire to impress piano players with their "chord melodies " ( he actually says that word in quotes in the most nerdy voice possible. ).

Basically, he says that practically every other musician responds to the aforementioned "chord melodies" in the most paternal way possible, like congratulating a small child for spelling his or her name. .

when you realize that this is the reality, you got to figure out a better way of doing things.

I think the horrible concept of "chord melodies" is an attempt to bridge the conventional guitar gap that exists in the rock 'n' roll world between "lead" and "rhythm" players .

That distinction should not exist in the Jazz world, where even the comping should be spontaneous, dynamic and represent movement in terms of a developed line.

One thing I learned from Tim Lerch, who is a very nice guy, is to break down the artificial wall between comping and chord solos.

I would advise people to look him up.

I completely agree. You should have the ability to add harmonies to you soloing as required - in a trio you need to do this more than in a group with a piano or another guitar player, and on your own you need to do it even more of course, and bass too ...

[lawson-stone]

I'm not a 'hater' (I like solo guitar), but here are two suggestions.
1. Sing.
2. Write for 'classical' players - hooray for amateurs​ - and take the band out of the box.

I can't figure out what #2 above means.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi !
Solo guitar is funny !..but I like to play with other people,especially if I have never played with them !

cheers

HB

[drbhrb]

I agree with what some others have said - the worse part of it is treating it like a separate endeavor. "This is my chord melody arrange of...". Even if you are in a trio with bass and drums you should be able to add harmony/comp for your self. It's the prearranged, paint by the numbers, add a drop 2 under each note kind of stuff that I think is the worst offender. It can be done better (Joe Pass certainly achieves far above that) but I still don't enjoy listening to it for long.

As for it being the only option - I find it hard to believe there are many places in the US at least where you couldn't find another jazz aspiring guitarist or other instrumentalist to play within a reasonable driving distance. Chord melody is fine for practice but is no substitute for learning to play with others. It's very obvious when a chord-melody only player gets on the bandstand and can't hang.

[Nate Miller]

I agree with what some others have said - the worse part of it is treating it like a separate endeavor. "This is my chord melody arrange of...". Even if you are in a trio with bass and drums you should be able to add harmony/comp for your self. It's the prearranged, paint by the numbers, add a drop 2 under each note kind of stuff that I think is the worst offender. It can be done better (Joe Pass certainly achieves far above that) but I still don't enjoy listening to it for long.

As for it being the only option - I find it hard to believe there are many places in the US at least where you couldn't find another jazz aspiring guitarist or other instrumentalist to play within a reasonable driving distance. Chord melody is fine for practice but is no substitute for learning to play with others. It's very obvious when a chord-melody only player gets on the bandstand and can't hang.

so is this stuff about solo guitar a reaction to the YouTubers playing chord melodies in their bedroom, or is it really a reaction to the solo guitar itself?

in my book, solo guitar is the top of the mountain. the pinnacle of our craft. So I just don't see what you guys don't see in it

[mr. beaumont]

I think it's a reaction to "I can't do it, so I don't like it."

Like back when I "didn't like" giant steps.

[Nate Miller]

you know, I didn't want to say that...but it sounds like that to me too

[drbhrb]

so is this stuff about solo guitar a reaction to the YouTubers playing chord melodies in their bedroom, or is it really a reaction to the solo guitar itself?

in my book, solo guitar is the top of the mountain. the pinnacle of our craft. So I just don't see what you guys don't see in it

Julian Lage's "World's Fair" blows me away and it is solo guitar. But that is more of a composed thing - he says it was inspired by segovia.

As for solo guitar being the top of the mountain, I don't even see it being on the mountain. It's a necessary evil when a restaurant won't pay for a full band and not much else.


As for "I can't do it, so I don't like it.", well no. I unfortunately have to play numerous solo gigs every year and can do it as well as the next guy. But it's not satisfying to me because there's no interaction to be had.

[Nate Miller]

But it's not satisfying to me because there's no interaction to be had.

ok, that I can understand...fair enough

there's people who like to play solo and there's people that don't

[lawson-stone]

I agree with what some others have said - the worse part of it is treating it like a separate endeavor. "This is my chord melody arrange of...". Even if you are in a trio with bass and drums you should be able to add harmony/comp for your self. It's the prearranged, paint by the numbers, add a drop 2 under each note kind of stuff that I think is the worst offender. It can be done better (Joe Pass certainly achieves far above that) but I still don't enjoy listening to it for long.

As for it being the only option - I find it hard to believe there are many places in the US at least where you couldn't find another jazz aspiring guitarist or other instrumentalist to play within a reasonable driving distance. Chord melody is fine for practice but is no substitute for learning to play with others. It's very obvious when a chord-melody only player gets on the bandstand and can't hang.

The reason we treat "chord melody" as a separate endeavor is the nature of the guitar. "Chords" on the guitar can be solely a matter of comping, or even just strumming away. Droves of guitar players never do other than that. Then there is line-playing, when the guitar functions like a horn.

The distinctive role of the guitar either as the solo voice, or the sole "polyphonic" voice, combined with the technical challenge of playing, or improvising, a melody with sufficient chordal support to be significant, makes this worth focusing on as a separate endeavor. You can comp like Freddie Green, play lines like Charlie Christian, and fall flat on your your face playing alone or in a group with just a bass and drums, if you can't do this. So we have to teach the peculiar challenge of a complex, interesting melodic line carried by a harmonic substructure and supported by the lineaments of a bass line.

That's hard to do on the guitar, especially in an improvisational context, and so yes, I think it's worth focused attention. And for every bedroom video of some YouTuber playing his basic CM arrangement, there are many others who can't even do that, and those bedroom video stars have their little crew of friends and family who love to hear them play. Maybe they weren't interested in anyone else even knowing about it.

[wolflen]

I had the great fortune to study with a master of solo/chord melody playing..and while I learned the "how to do it" I was far more interested in the study of chord structures and their application to the improvised line..(symmetric harmony-substitutions-implied harmony etc) and my teacher "knew" what I wanted and was more than able to show me this kind of stuff..and now when I hear someone like ben monder or holdsworth spraying an irrational line over a smooth chord run and then doing an irrational chord run mixed with a smooth single line..ahhh..and yes I realize..like chord melody..its not for everyone..


I find the study of chord melody (if done right) to be an extension of "classical guitar" discipline..to create interest with the moving voices..there are as many variations to a harmony as there are variations of a melodic theme..and yes you can spend a lifetime with just the study of this type of playing..(the same can be said of most any style really)

chet atkins and mark knopfler may be worlds apart in some respects..but they have played together and it is very nice to hear and see..and realize chet cant play like mark and vise-versa..but they can play together..it can not be said of every guitarist..regardless of style..some can only "shine" within a certain context..

joe pass was very exceptional..he was at home in a band..solo..or just backing Ella..he was not just a guitar player..he was a musician..

[destinytot]

I can't figure out what #2 above means.

It's a suggestion to write parts for a small chamber music ensemble to replace backing tracks (such as BIAB).

[Longways to Go]

when nobody else is around, either you can play decent solo or you can't.
It's a cool skill set. I'm working hard on it, but I'm no where near where I'd like to be.

FWIW, I don't think listening to solo guitar is any worse than lots of other instruments.
I can enjoy a tune or two, but I don't want a steady diet of it.
I also don't want to listen to hours of sax or trumpet unaccompanied, not much B-3 either.

Even less with singers or banjo . . .

[Hep To The Jive]

when nobody else is around, either you can play decent solo or you can't.
It's a cool skill set. I'm working hard on it, but I'm no where near where I'd like to be.

FWIW, I don't think listening to solo guitar is any worse than lots of other instruments.
I can enjoy a tune or two, but I don't want a steady diet of it.
I also don't want to listen to hours of sax or trumpet unaccompanied, not much B-3 either.

Even less with singers or banjo . . .

Man, solo banjo, are you kidding?? My gf runs away from the house when I'm practicing my tenor banjo, ahaha. She just hates the sound of it, and she's not alone. It's one of this instruments, needs a band to blend in.

You're right, for me too, any solo instrument performance is only good in limited quantities. In my case, very limited. As a player, I've done some solo guitar gigs, but I'm not enjoying it so much I rather pass on a gig now. For me the reason I started playing guitar is to be in a band. With jazz it's no different.