Howard Morgen arranging process

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-24-2016, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Yes I enjoy Mr. B's playing a lot. May I assume "Jeff" is "grahambop?"

If so, I regard his solo on "Blue Bossa" posted on YouTube as canonic. He sets the standard for how that's done. Just a fantastic solo, all musicality with the great technique simply delivering clean, exciting music.

No. Jeff is Mr. B. I don't want to miss spell his last name here, with voice recognition. :-) Check out his sig.

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

No. Jeff is Mr. B. I don't want to miss spell his last name here, with voice recognition. :-) Check out his sig.

Got it. Love grahambop's playing too. Mr. B. is one of this site's leading players, imo.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-24-2016, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Got it. Love grahambop's playing too. Mr. B. is one of this site's leading players, imo.

(Me too. Now, ssh. quiet before he comes back around.)

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Yes I enjoy Mr. B's playing a lot. May I assume "Jeff" is "grahambop?"

If so, I regard his solo on "Blue Bossa" posted on YouTube as canonic. He sets the standard for how that's done. Just a fantastic solo, all musicality with the great technique simply delivering clean, exciting music.

Hi Lawson, no, last time I checked, I was not Jeff. The way I can tell is to look in the mirror, if there's no beard, c'est moi. If there's still any doubt, I check my guitar collection. If there's no Tele, that settles it.

I hope you still like my 'Blue Bossa' after that shocking revelation (!)

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Hi Lawson, no, last time I checked, I was not Jeff. The way I can tell is to look in the mirror, if there's no beard, c'est moi. If there's still any doubt, I check my guitar collection. If there's no Tele, that settles it.

I hope you still like my 'Blue Bossa' after that shocking revelation (!)

Ha! It's so easy to get people confused when "handles" get mixed with actual names. That's why, though risky, I've started just using my name, as I assume you do too (though I assumed it was a last name when I thought you were Jeff).

Sadly, now I don't like Blue Bossa... JUST KIDDING!

That's one excellent solo. A demonstration also answering the perennial question, "What's so great about an ES175?" That solo really has it. I'm now following your YouTube channel.

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 10:44 AM

BTW this is a question mainly for Mr. B and grahambop. Above where there was some talk of building chords in 4th's, is that what has come to be called "quartal" harmony? If so, I think I want to learn a bit more about it.

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Ha! It's so easy to get people confused when "handles" get mixed with actual names. That's why, though risky, I've started just using my name, as I assume you do too (though I assumed it was a last name when I thought you were Jeff).

Sadly, now I don't like Blue Bossa... JUST KIDDING!

That's one excellent solo. A demonstration also answering the perennial question, "What's so great about an ES175?" That solo really has it. I'm now following your YouTube channel.

Thanks Lawson. My first name is Graham, but my surname is not Bop! (would be quite cool if it was!)

Have a look round my channel. I've put a load of old jazz videos up there, e.g. stuff I've taped off the telly over the years. I generally don't put anything up if it's commercially available, or already on Youtube, but there's quite a lot of old BBC stuff which will never see the light of day (I bet they wiped the tapes!), so I'm preserving it for posterity!

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

BTW this is a question mainly for Mr. B and grahambop. Above where there was some talk of building chords in 4th's, is that what has come to be called "quartal" harmony? If so, I think I want to learn a bit more about it.

Yes that's what I call it. I'm not an expert, but I might put together a few examples to show how I use them.

**eduardosanz** · 02-24-2016, 11:20 AM

Excellente grahambop. Great playing and absolutely brilliant ypur explanation and your pdf. Thanks a lot, really!

**mr. beaumont** · 02-24-2016, 11:21 AM

Well, son of a gun, my cheeks are burnin'!

Thanks though...I'm getting a little older, not as much time to keep up on chops...but I can be me, at least. So I got that going for me...

I listen to a small amount of a lot of types of music...grateful dead, old country, sonic youth, old jazz, new jazz, "post rock" stuff like godspeed you! black emperor or tortoise, dub reggae...I guess it all seeps in somehow...

I'll do a quartal vid too. Like graham, I'm no expert, but I sure do use those shapes...a lot!

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by eduardosanz

Excellente grahambop. Great playing and absolutely brilliant ypur explanation and your pdf. Thanks a lot, really!

Thanks Eduardo. Actually I quite enjoy putting those chord chart things together, after a shi**y day at the office, it's very therapeutic!

**eduardosanz** · 02-24-2016, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Thanks Eduardo. Actually I quite enjoy putting those chord chart things together, after a shi**y day at the office, it's very therapeutic!

By the way, do you happejn to have a blank pdf with those chord grids? It could be very useful too many of us I guess.

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by eduardosanz

By the way, do you happejn to have a blank pdf with those chord grids? It could be very useful too many of us I guess.

Yes sure, it was something I knocked up in excel. I'll post it this evening.

**targuit** · 02-24-2016, 02:28 PM

Just jumped up out of my pile of medical records under which I am temporarily ....err...buried (don't like to use those terms), but I was just wondering if anyone is familiar with a Kurt Rosenwinkel "clinic" (as Joe Pass used to say, "makes me feel like a doctor or something...") in which Kurt talks about how he approaches CM style playing using Body and Soul for illustration. I won't link it so as not to disrupt the flow here, but one can find it on YouTube by searching his name and Body and Soul. Unfortunately the video seems to cut off Kurt's head in the frame which is a bit annoying, but his playing is very nice and his explanations articulate.

If you want to hear that fellow Peter Mazza I mentioned before do his thing with All the things you are, one can search that on YT as well. I'm not crazy about it as a listener myself, but his approach is different in terms of harmony.

I intend to try and do some real spontaneous solo recording with my Tascam DR-05 of some of the tunes here, as I believe I can upload them more directly to my YT site. Got to finish a couple of more records in the pile before that - my wife is a tough taskmaster. She knows me too well...

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by targuit

Just jumped up out of my pile of medical records under which I am temporarily ....err...buried (don't like to use those terms), but I was just wondering if anyone is familiar with a Kurt Rosenwinkel "clinic" (as Joe Pass used to say, "makes me feel like a doctor or something...") in which Kurt talks about how he approaches CM style playing using Body and Soul for illustration. I won't link it so as not to disrupt the flow here, but one can find it on YouTube by searching his name and Body and Soul. Unfortunately the video seems to cut off Kurt's head in the frame which is a bit annoying, but his playing is very nice and his explanations articulate.

If you want to hear that fellow Peter Mazza I mentioned before do his thing with All the things you are, one can search that on YT as well. I'm not crazy about it as a listener myself, but his approach is different in terms of harmony.

I intend to try and do some real spontaneous solo recording with my Tascam DR-05 of some of the tunes here, as I believe I can upload them more directly to my YT site. Got to finish a couple of more records in the pile before that - my wife is a tough taskmaster. She knows me too well...

I hope I've set a sufficiently, uh, what's the word, attainable standard of imperfection in spontaneity! I have just decided to start having fun with these songs. I mess around with them for a day or two, then at night shoot a take and post it, mistakes and all.

Then again...
Howard Morgen arranging process-mistakes001-jpg

Howard Morgen arranging process-mistakes001-jpg

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-24-2016, 03:23 PM

Yeah, the Rosenwinkel video is great.

Thinking of basic voicings , in terms of the OP....

I really like the thing that reg suggested in another thread about extended diatonic harmony: the diatonic seventh chord a third above or below the chord of the moment. Just looking at this some in recent weeks, I've discovered that I know a lot more chords than I thought I did . In some ways it's just a hack , a different way of looking at something or naming it, but basically, the sub a third lower gives you a diatonic 6th chord, and the one above gives you a diatonic 9th chord.

They're pretty great for just adding color and variety to basic chords, for adding movement in voices, when used over static chords, and long-term, for giving you different harmonic areas to pull from and embellish on the original basic diatonic chord.

But beyond all that, I would imagine they will also give you a lot more workarounds and "outs" for difficult chord voicings for CM as well. These diatonic subs are really handy for when things get too low in CM. In recent threads, we've had people describing the frustration of being stuck with basically playing a power chord because the melody note was a real low note as voiced in the original chord. Well, the fifth of the chord could now be played as the third of the lower diatonic sub and give you a little more color and fingering options.

Things like major #11s were difficult for me in the beginning. You have to learn to play all these things eventually, but you can also do things like sub an Em9 for that C-major#11 which is giving you fits.

Pretty handy, especially if you have some time over a static chord or whatever to establish bass otherwise. Just some thoughts on basics.

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

Yeah, the Rosenwinkel video is great.

Thinking of basic voicings , in terms of the OP....

I really like the thing that reg suggested in another thread about extended diatonic harmony: the diatonic seventh chord a third above or below the chord of the moment. Just looking at this some in recent weeks, I've discovered that I know a lot more chords than I thought I did . In some ways it's just a hack , a different way of looking at something or naming it, but basically, the sub a third lower gives you a diatonic 6th chord, and the one above gives you a diatonic 9th chord.

They're pretty great for just adding color and variety to basic chords, for adding movement in voices, when used over static chords, and long-term, for giving you different harmonic areas to pull from and embellish on the original basic diatonic chord.

But beyond all that, I would imagine they will also give you a lot more workarounds and "outs" for difficult chord voicings for CM as well. These diatonic subs are really handy for when things get too low in CM. In recent threads, we've had people describing the frustration of being stuck with basically playing a power chord because the melody note was a real low note as voiced in the original chord. Well, the fifth of the chord could now be played as the third of the lower diatonic sub and give you a little more color and fingering options.

Things like major #11s were difficult for me in the beginning. You have to learn to play all these things eventually, but you can also do things like sub an Em9 for that C-major#11 which is giving you fits.

Pretty handy, especially if you have some time over a static chord or whatever to establish bass otherwise. Just some thoughts on basics.

So as an example, if I'm playing BbMaj7 the third above is Dm7, below is Gm7. Is that the idea?

I ask because it expresses differently something I'd learned as the "relative minor" (Gm7 to Bb) and the principle that in a I-vi-ii-V progression, you can substitute the iii for the I if you don't need a resolution all the way back to the tonic. You go from I-vi-ii-V to iii-vi-ii-V. But then throw in a b5 sub for the vi and V and you've got a chromatic line: iii-biii-ii-bii, or, you have at the end, "One Note Samba" whose main line: Dm-Db7-Cm-B7 is actually a covert I-vi-ii-V.

Or have I totally confused what you were talking about?

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-24-2016, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

So as an example, if I'm playing BbMaj7 the third above is Dm7, below is Gm7. Is that the idea?

Yeah. That's it. It's helpful to know diatonically what scale degree the chord represents. Sub chords would be different for a min7 chord, for example, depending on whether it's a ii or iii etc....

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-24-2016, 04:42 PM

I just thought it was cool that if you basically know your diatonic 7th chords in drop 2, you also know your 6ths and 9ths for all chord types as well, by default. Of course there's a lot to be done with further extensions as well .

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

I just thought it was cool that if you basically know your diatonic 7th chords in drop 2, you also know your 6ths and 9ths for all chord types as well, by default. Of course there's a lot to be done with further extensions as well .

Yes, it's an economy of information that pays off in improvising as you are making lots of decisions in the flow of things. Less to think about.

**grahambop** · 02-24-2016, 07:55 PM

Here's some stuff about quartal chords. This probably represents the total sum of my knowledge on this subject!

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by grahambop

Here's some stuff about quartal chords. This probably represents the total sum of my knowledge on this subject!

many thanks! And thank you as well for the blank grid.

I actually have two chord-grid rubber stamps, but no ink-pads!

**Dave70** · 02-24-2016, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

These diatonic subs are really handy for when things get too low in CM. In recent threads, we've had people describing the frustration of being stuck with basically playing a power chord because the melody note was a real low note as voiced in the original chord. Well, the fifth of the chord could now be played as the third of the lower diatonic sub and give you a little more color and fingering options.

Regarding the melody being low, I think Howard Morgen writes about playing the melody in the bass with harmony above and also jumping octaves sometimes. Darn I can't remember in which book I saw that, lol.

**lawson-stone** · 02-24-2016, 11:48 PM

I've put another "sketch" up over in the "Songs" section. It's "When You Wish Upon a Star" inspired by finding a Joe Pass clip on YouTube in which he goes totally Joe Pass all over this tune.

I don't. But I don't think I do it fatal damage either.

Check it out, and your advice has been so incredibly useful to me, I look forward to hearing (over there probably) your suggestions (except for "STOP IT!").

I don't think I'm alone in thinking this thread has become extremely meaty and rich. Some serious ideas have been floating around, and I've learned some helpful stuff.

**eduardosanz** · 02-25-2016, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I don't think I'm alone in thinking this thread has become extremely meaty and rich. Some serious ideas have been floating around, and I've learned some helpful stuff.

The thread has become trully useful. Too much invaluable information for me to digest as fast indeed. Gracefully all the chit-chat derived to an amazing torrent of advice and information.

Thank you all!