Howard Morgen arranging process

[matt.guitarteacher]

I am really sorry for having open this thread....
N

I just wanted to know some arranging mental process. Maybe now I got it...

Please close the thread, mod.

No. Seriously. This is the fun stuff. Did you have any kind of tune in mind? Or even a section of one? God knows we need some non gear threads going as well.

[targuit]

Hate to tell you this, guys, but this thread was not disrupted by me but someone else. Read it for a change before you start mudslinging.

[targuit]

Why don't we take a specific song and analyze it? Issues like choice of key, bass patterns, and melody. Hopefully talking in real musical terms, not the horrid xxxx0123 style terms but real notation or notes on which string. Pick a tune. Start with a ballad.

Start with the melody within a specific key and the bass note of the root chords of the progression. As you proceed one can always 'walk the bass'. Anyone like The Nearness of You. Isn't It Romantic. The Second Time Around.

Any Jimmy van Heusen song is great. But Beautiful, Here's That Rainy Day.....

Just my opinion but where people go off track sometimes is believing that they have to "memorize" inversions, etc. The harmony is the convergence of the inner harmonic voices. With chord melody it is all about voice leading properly.

Hey! Maybe we can make this educational...we're we to take a tune and describe our process...maybe?
= Jeff Matz


For the deaf, dumb and blind - note that this was my post and no. 6. For those with reading disability:
Why don't we take a specific song and analyze it? Issues like choice of key, bass patterns, and melody. Hopefully talking in real musical terms.....

Not that I have any illusion about your biases. But I hope at least one or two of you are bright enough to get past the cognitive dissonance. Or at least can read....I will vacate this thread.

[lawson-stone]

Graham - I appreciate what you suggest. I do not have a camcorder or camera that has a good video capability. But last night I recorded both Georgia On My Mind and Alfie. I am reasonably content with both. I will have two goals today - one to upload the financial aid documents for my son's college applications and two to upload a couple of videos to Youtube as expeditiously as possible. I'll leave it to any reasonable person to determine which task has the priority.

Lawson - It is quite apparent that what is 'good for the goose' seems not to apply to the gander. I spent the past thirty years taking care of people in medicine, not whiling away my time on computers. I apologize to you for my lack of tech savvy and fancy gadgets, which as a doctor in the US today after years of price fixing by the Federal and State government and rapacious health insurance executives screwing physicians and patients, I cannot afford. (Of course, the pat line is that 'all doctors are rich' - LOL!) But that is another issue.

I neglected to mention as well that my brilliant son as a teenager also tends to monopolize the home computer with iTunes which I use to convert the files. I am on a Macbook now which, hard to believe I know, does not have iTunes loaded, as I used it for business. I am sure I can find some way to get my videos up. I have done it in the past.

Your comments about "all hat, no cowboy" will be embarrassing in the end, but not to me. I would suggest you contain your comments until I have the opportunity to post, which will be soon. Whether you like my playing or not will not be up to me, but whether I can play competently will be quite obvious.

Funny, I thought that a healthy measure of civility and mutual respect had been restored on the forum. Apparently not. That includes former mean spirited comments by moderators as well as some obstinate posters. None of whom seem to have distinguished themselves in music. More's the pity.

Jay,
I don't think I said anything uncivil. You have devoted a lot of time to slamming other people directly or by plain innuendo. I've called you on it. Honestly, I've uploaded financial aid documents for 3 children over 4 years of college each, lets see now, that's 12 times at least. I also completed and uploaded graduate financial apps also for all three children, two of whom are pursuing PhDs at major universities and one who was poached by the Foreign Service as an economic analyst, one app was for one son to attend Oxford University in the UK. All of that uploading--and I am not a tech expert by any stretch of the imagination--took, cumulatively, perhaps 3 hours of work. You protest too much. Uploading a financial aid app just isn't a big deal for someone with the brain power to be a medical doctor.

Your goose/gander analogy fails. You can't just tell someone else what tunes to play. All I, we, ask is that you back up and illustrate your opinions by posting a clip of your jazz playing. Unlike you, I've posted several clips of my playing, such as it is. Anyone hearing my advice and opinion can go listen and immediately decide if my beginning/intermediate playing merits their respect. We really haven't heard from you a single example of traditional jazz improvisation.

Its fine that you don't post, really. But if you're going to make very strong statements about how this music is to be played, you really should show us that you can deliver. And a good jazz player, by definition, can play on the spot... improvise that is.

And the phrase is "all hat, no cattle." It applies to people who like to look and talk the cowboy but don't really back it up. So far, I think that cowboy boot fits.

You have done one thing. You have earned a spot on my "Ignore" list. That's not easy to do, but you have earned it.

[targuit]

Jay, why don't you start a thread on this or shut up about it forever? This is belligerent, obnoxious and personally insulting to many members of this forum. There are even some who read and play better than you do but still use it.

Start your own thread on this, and stop pounding it in every other thread.

So. This is Matt having a hissy fit because I suggested using terms like Cdim7 rather that xxx0000s. And does Matt address his problem with a rational discourse? Can your read?

Jay, why don't you start a thread on this or shut up about it forever? This is belligerent, obnoxious and personally insulting to many members of this forum.

[nick1994]

Why don't we take a specific song and analyze it? Issues like choice of key, bass patterns, and melody. Hopefully talking in real musical terms, not the horrid xxxx0123 style terms but real notation or notes on which string.

Wasnt really necassary to bring up your distain for that fype of chord notation

[targuit]

Nick - I expressed an opinion about a mode of indicating a particular voicing. Please read the comment by Frank (FEP). Do you know any pianists? Do they talk about "piano diagrams" or voicing with reference to chord construction and intervals?

Did you read Matt's abusive response to my post no. 6? Answer one question for the defense please. Who attacked someone personally here first? Me, Matt, Lawson?

I no longer expect any demonstrably intelligent response from some here. I hope you are objective enough to answer my question. The facts speak for themselves - problem is no one has the integrity to call a spade a spade.

By the way, want to see an example of a passive aggressive in action? Go take a look at the discussion between Jonzo and Matt.

[KirkP]

How about the folks that don't like each other go to private messaging so the rest of us can talk about something interesting?

[targuit]

How about the folks that don't like each other go to private messaging so the rest of us can talk about something interesting?

How about some here having the balls to stand up for what is right?

[KirkP]

...
What's right is to help the OP, and spare us the off topic rants.

[matt.guitarteacher]

How about the folks that don't like each other go to private messaging so the rest of us can talk about something interesting?

Actually, there is a "not Howard Morgen "thread which is amazing for this purpose.

[Jabberwocky]

...
What's right is to help the OP, and spare us the off topic rants.

+1.

[eduardosanz]

.... whatever....

I think now I got the Howard Morgen approach:

He searchs for the movement between chords trying to always create a nice moving walking bassline (weather skip wise or step wise, or moving across the cycle of fouths), as smooth as possible (emphasis on voice leading as he is a fingerstyle player), and trying to maintain the movement as long as possible. To do so, he detects the different notes and the common notes in the chords among to switch, and then transition from the first chord to the closest diferent note of the next chord, and that way he decides which inversion to use in the new chord. As for the melody top notes, I think he just place it on top as an extension of the chord. I see this as a bottom-top way of constructing chords rather than the usual top-bottom way of doing it.

Example:

Chords to navigate: Dmin7 to G7 to Cmaj7
Spelling of the chords: DFAC to GBDF to CEGB
Common tones between Dmin7 and G7: DF
Different tones between Dmin7 and G7: ACGB
Closest note: A to G (or C to B). Implies a descending moving line. Try to hold the direction as long as possible (looking ahead at the third chord in the progression >>> the bass movement could be: A to G to G, or A to G to E. I choose the last option as to keep the bass moving, so I should choose:

Dmin7 (second inversion) to G7 (root position) to Cmaj7 (first inversion).

Then add the melody note if necessary as an extension or alteration of the chord in question.

Well, I have simplified it terribly, but I think I get it now...

Playing Stardust

[grahambop]

I think by now we have all duly noted and registered Jay's objection to the 'horrid' XXXXXX thing, so I propose that we do not discuss it any further. If people want to use it, go ahead, if they don't, then use something else. On a text-based forum it has its uses when trying to spell out a very specific voicing, as has been pointed out already.

I've no doubt Jay will continue to mention it in future posts or threads on similar subjects. I don't mind if he describes it as the spawn of Satan or something, I just don't think it's worth discussing it with him, as it just leads to tedious arguments which spoil the thread. I'm not really having a go at Jay here by the way, I think that's just his rather extreme way of expressing things, he isn't going to change. Personally I do not like to use the kind of emotive language he favours, but on the other hand it takes two to start these arguments. Ultimately nothing is achieved, no-one changes their views, and the thread gets spoiled. It's totally counter-productive.

Anyway, back on topic, it occurred to me that I have recorded a couple of chord-melody type things in the past, so if I get time, I will post them here and try and lay out for the OP what chord voicings I used, how I came up with them, etc.

Let's help the OP. I can remember how daunting these chord-melody things seemed when I first started trying to do them. (On some tunes it's still quite a challenge!)

[targuit]

" I'm not really having a go at Jay here by the way, I think that's just his rather extreme way of expressing things, he isn't going to change. Personally I do not like to use the kind of emotive language he favours, but on the other hand it takes two to start these arguments. Ultimately nothing is achieved, no-one changes their views, and the thread gets spoiled. It's totally counter-productive."


"Rather extreme way of expressing things"? The most extreme thing I said about the xxx000 approach was to call it "horrid" - rather British, don't you think - and to suggest that a voicing could be described in a more useful fashion by "Cm7b5" type approach with a fret position indication (8th) which clearly indicates the voicing as based upon musical intervals rather than visual diagrams and expedites discussion.

I hope I did not use too many multisyllabic words.

You know, Graham, the comedy behind this is that so many people pile on without actually reading the thread. And sadly and to my disappointment I would include you. The aggressor in this thread was NOT me, but rather Matt first (n.6, 9, 48) and then Lawson-Stoned (no. 23, 32, 60).


The only way an objective person could fail to comprehend that is that they either cannot read with comprehension or don't bother to read the thread before weighing.


I am really a rather pacifistic guy. Following Matt's initial personal attack and 'hissy fit', I tried to redirect the conversation back to the subject. Same with Lawson-Stoned. But in each instance Matt continues his rant and personal attacks. And Lawson taunts with his "all hat, no cattle" snide comments, even after I responded pacifically to both of them. (no. 10, 24, 43).

I don't think I have ever been aggressive with you in any music discussion. If that is not true, please feel free to correct me with a concrete example. Why is it that the issues about my 'derailing threads' always seem to occur with certain posters at the center? Think hard about the answer. Read Matt's pissing contest with poor Jonzo whom he also tags with the label of 'disruptive' just because Jonzo disagrees with him. Recall the nasty comments from a moderator in my regard in the past. And now Lawson -Stoned.

Who are the bullies and taunters here? I would not waste your time nor mine with this but the bullying by some psychologically stunted people should stop. The only way to stop a bully is for the victim to knock him out cold or for bystanders to take a stand against bullies rather than to 'do nothing' other than meekly court their favor. You know that.

I will not post on this thread further unless provoked again by some guy with a big chip on his little shoulder.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think by now we have all duly noted and registered Jay's objection to the 'horrid' XXXXXX thing, so I propose that we do not discuss it any further. If people want to use it, go ahead, if they don't, then use something else. On a text-based forum it has its uses when trying to spell out a very specific voicing, as has been pointed out already.

I've no doubt Jay will continue to mention it in future posts or threads on similar subjects. I don't mind if he describes it as the spawn of Satan or something, I just don't think it's worth discussing it with him, as it just leads to tedious arguments which spoil the thread. I'm not really having a go at Jay here by the way, I think that's just his rather extreme way of expressing things, he isn't going to change. Personally I do not like to use the kind of emotive language he favours, but on the other hand it takes two to start these arguments. Ultimately nothing is achieved, no-one changes their views, and the thread gets spoiled. It's totally counter-productive.

I know I didn't go about it the right way. But I think there is distinction to be made between annoyingly going on about something OT in an offhand way, and basically telling everyone else how they should proceed in talking about THIS topic, which is what Jay was doing . I still think off-topic items are best dealt with in a separate thread and said as much. Sorry to create the stir. I appreciate everything you're saying.

Anyway, back on topic, it occurred to me that I have recorded a couple of chord-melody type things in the past, so if I get time, I will post them here and try and lay out for the OP what chord voicings I used, how I came up with them, etc.

Let's help the OP. I can remember how daunting these chord-melody things seemed when I first started trying to do them. (On some tunes it's still quite a challenge!)

I do things in a pretty basic way, but I would be more than happy to do the same. It's a great topic , and one in which I would actually be happy to have Jay's or anyone else's input.

[targuit]

So now it is all 'sunshine and light' again? Do you suffer from mood swings?

Matt, I tried to appease both you and Lawson. To no avail. I have no intention of attacking you personally. But find another way to disagree with people rather than derail the thread and then attribute that very act to the other individual.

And please recall that in post no. 6, the worst thing I said about xxx000 thing was to call it "horrid". Read your post no. 9, 11,... And how is it that the show you and Jonzo put on in another thread somehow is above reproach?

Btw, I liked your performance of You Are Too Beautiful.

[dingusmingus]

.... whatever....

I think now I got the Howard Morgen approach:

He searchs for the movement between chords trying to always create a nice moving walking bassline (weather skip wise or step wise, or moving across the cycle of fouths), as smooth as possible (emphasis on voice leading as he is a fingerstyle player), and trying to maintain the movement as long as possible. To do so, he detects the different notes and the common notes in the chords among to switch, and then transition from the first chord to the closest diferent note of the next chord, and that way he decides which inversion to use in the new chord. As for the melody top notes, I think he just place it on top as an extension of the chord. I see this as a bottom-top way of constructing chords rather than the usual top-bottom way of doing it.

Example:

Chords to navigate: Dmin7 to G7 to Cmaj7
Spelling of the chords: DFAC to GBDF to CEGB
Common tones between Dmin7 and G7: DF
Different tones between Dmin7 and G7: ACGB
Closest note: A to G (or C to B). Implies a descending moving line. Try to hold the direction as long as possible (looking ahead at the third chord in the progression >>> the bass movement could be: A to G to G, or A to G to E. I choose the last option as to keep the bass moving, so I should choose:

Dmin7 (second inversion) to G7 (root position) to Cmaj7 (first inversion).

Then add the melody note if necessary as an extension or alteration of the chord in question.

Well, I have simplified it terribly, but I think I get it now...

Playing Stardust

Cool, thanks for the summary. I may be oversimplifying, but it sounds like he's picking inversion to lead to smooth voice leading, with an eye on the bass. I often don't think enough about bass movement--this is a good reminder for me to keep an eye on that. (Although if you are doing inversions to smooth out the top, the bottom is probably going to be pretty smooth too.)

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm sorry I told you to shut up about it. It was an unkind way to say it. But it really is off-topic, and it really did appear to be attempting to tell others how to post in the thread. (PM sent)

Thanks for your compliment. Let's talk chord melody.

[eduardosanz]

Let's talk chord melody.

Yes please.

[eduardosanz]

(Although if you are doing inversions to smooth out the top, the bottom is probably going to be pretty smooth too.)

Maybe the debate should be that: play inversions to smooth out the top, or to smooth out the bottom?

[mr. beaumont]

From a quick glance, it appears Morgen is truly arranging for solo guitar, which is different than "chord melody." That's why the bass line is taking such prominence...

It's a cool way to think though...we get bogged down in harmony sometimes, looking for cool sounding chord voicings and ignoring the two primal elements that make us notice music in the first place: melody, and groove.

[destinytot]

... provoked by some guy with a big chip on his little shoulder.

This made me smile - and it seems ironic to me because there actually appears to be agreement here on the importance of helping the OP.

Without wishing to provoke - "That is not it all. / That is not what I meant at all."*) - I think it may have been a Good Thing to have "forced the moment to its crisis"*. And from what I've seen of him on video, my speculation is that Howard Morgen may well have agreed (not that speculating could be of any consequence).

But here's why I think so: helping others to do what they could otherwise do for themselves is not helping at all - and whoever accepts such help becomes doomed to dependency... or to eternal adolescence. (Sorry, I don't get out as much as I should...)

I've watched (and enjoyed) some of Howard Morgen's teaching, and I think he does an excellent job of helping people get started - by means of challenge that is both adequate and appropriate.

Re. the OP, I'll join the discussion proper after work.

*1. The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock. T.S. Eliot. 1920. Prufrock and Other Observations

[eduardosanz]

From a quick glance, it appears Morgen is truly arranging for solo guitar, which is different than "chord melody." That's why the bass line is taking such prominence...

It's a cool way to think though...we get bogged down in harmony sometimes, looking for cool sounding chord voicings and ignoring the two primal elements that make us notice music in the first place: melody, and groove.

Yeah, I think he definitely arranges for solo jazz guitar rather than "block" chord melody (ala Robert Conti to name one).

And talking about groove, this man really has it...

[Dave70]

In Howard's -Through Chord Melody and Beyond- book, his title to part 1 is: "Approaches to self-Accompaniment for Solo Jazz Guitar".

Chapter 1 is actually about "chord melody". Chapters 2-5 get into fingerstyle, bass lines, etc... the beyond! lol

I've always liked his books, there's a lot of useful info packed into them.