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OK. Say I was to find the melody on the high string E. It could be any melody, but the one I found the other day was My Funny Valentine (one of my favourite melodies and songs)--this is the melody I found on top E string--eg open E, F#, G, F#, G, F#. So just taking that little melody sequence (I KNOW I could find the melody and chords by looking for the song online, and I am going to do all that I promise, but please play with me on this for now)--how would I find possible chord voicings for that little melody line? or it could by ANY melody I found along the top string---even London Bridge is Falling Down, but I would sooner a tune that I dig lol
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04-04-2012 09:12 AM
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Chord quality (major, minor, dominant, etc.) And bass note are the first things I "listen" for internally.
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Assuming I didn't know the song:
if E is the root Em B7
if E is the 3rd CMa7 Am6
if E is the 5th A7 D7
if E is the 3rd C#m7b5 C9#11 Bm7 Bb9+
There are many possibilities. Choosing a harmonic rhythm is important, in this case I chose 2 chords and 4 for the last example.
If I am learning a melody from a recording or memory of one I can hear some or all aspects of the harmony.
This process comes up more me in reharmonization or harmonizing a melody for songwriters.
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I am surmising there is beginners, intermediate, and professional level for inquiry...? I have found it hard to Google a successful search for this. Ie., for the beginners or intermediate understanding of how to make chords for a melody line you might find on the high E string. Any ideas? What would YOU Google?
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First determine what the keynote is (or what you want it to be). If it's E, then you're melody is made up of root, second & minor third of the key.
Determine which chords in E minor contain each of the notes in melody. (e.g. an E minor triad could be used to harmonize an E, G, or B). Pick the best sounding chord, then find the inversion that puts that note on top.
Note that not every note has to be harmonized.
e.g. You could simply play you're example with an E minor, 1st inversion (top three strings open), a second inversion E minor (3rd fret, 5th fret, 4th fret on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd strings), and just play the F# as a passing note, or by stretching your finger.
This is a simplified way of harmonizing any line in triads.
But really, you'd just want to find the actually chords for the song and use them to harmonize the line. e.g. the song starts with a descending bass line, E minor, Emin/D#, Emin/D, Emin/C#....
Try googling: chord melody, harmonizing a melody line, jazz arranging, drop-2 chord voicings, chord inversions....Last edited by RyanM; 04-04-2012 at 08:06 PM.
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OK, I think I understand that. I know that you can really use any key for any tune right? Transposing.
Originally Posted by RyanM
The notes I chose which were E F# and G ?If it's E, then you're melody is made up of root, second & minor third of the key.
Why is it important to have the note on top? I am guessing because the melody most heard is usually the top note?Determine which chords in E minor contain each of the notes in melody. (e.g. an E minor triad could be used to harmonize an E, G, or B). Pick the best sounding chord, then find the inversion that puts that note on top.
has? what about dissonance?...Are there set rules? Or have musicians flouted them?Note that not every note has to be harmonized.
OK thanks I will try that as I have recently been re-practicing triads.e.g. You could simply play you're example with an E minor, 1st inversion (top three strings open), a second inversion E minor (3rd fret, 5th fret, 4th fret on the 1st, 2nd, 3rd strings), and just play the F# as a passing note, or by stretching your finger.
Oh so those are the actual notes? I suppose what I am asking --was really wanting to explore more so was if I just spontaneously find some melody that I like, what do I do to find chords.This is a simplified way of harmonizing any line in triads.
But really, you'd just want to find the actually chords for the song and use them to harmonize the line. e.g. the song starts with a descending bass line, E minor, Emin/D#, Emin/D, Emin/C#....
Part of me wants to know the rudiments of course. But the wilder part of me wants someone to say 'there are NO rules'---and thus I could get weird chords that are not 'supposed' to be used for any standard tune. I dont know what I am saying actually lol. I mean I know JAzz IS like that, especially when it dives into imrpovisation.
Some great ideas. Thanks I will try them.Try googling: chord melody, harmonizing a melody line, jazz arranging, drop-2 chord voicings, chord inversions....
Yesterday, I was looking at a website talking about this and as an example it showed the musical notation of Amazing Grace--a tune I love and sing a lot in different ways unaccompanied. because I have not picked up the guitar in a while and stuff I had learned has regressed (though its there somewhere lol), I had forgotten how to guess where the notes were. i KNIDA remember FACE and 'every good boy deserves favour'? But I was struggling to read the music. So I just began to find the melody for Amazing Grace on the first G Mjor position, and then begahn finding the simple chords. This was runs and chords, but not I suppose harmonization, where the actual chords is part OF the melody...?
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"Oh so those are the actual notes? I suppose what I am asking --was really wanting to explore more so was if I just spontaneously find some melody that I like, what do I do to find chords.
Part of me wants to know the rudiments of course. But the wilder part of me wants someone to say 'there are NO rules'---and thus I could get weird chords that are not 'supposed' to be used for any standard tune. I don't know what I am saying actually lol. I mean I know Jazz IS like that, especially when it dives into imrpovisation."
I would begin with triads to build a chord melody..knowing all the inversions of the triads in all qualities..major minor dim aug...will give you many tools to build just about any chord melody on the top four strings..
with practice you will start to see the "next" chord..
when you have a strong foundation with triads..then you can start with 4-note chords..and from there to extended and altered chords..
this will take some time...a through study of diatonic harmony will be of great value in the study of how chords work together..and are used in creating melodic statements..
play well
wolf
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Once you know the key your in, use the harmonized scale...run through the inversions to find the note on top..better to start with a lead sheet,
pick up some of the cords from that, alter some...watch your base notes, it goes on and on....There is no rule that says you can't use some crazy cord...It seem to me that you can almost always justify a weird cord if you look at it hard enough...
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I find this VERY inspiring, and last few days I have been real focussed on learning triads on all six strings and trying different feelings of the triad, the major, minor, diminished, augmented! I have been concentrating knowing where root notes are on eg 1st, 2nd 3rd strings, etc, then on 2,3,4th string and so on. Originally Posted by wolflen
So you are saying chord melodies are more so top four strings, of course meaning including the 7th note of course?
Yes I am feeling this more and more. It is freeing me up to utilize the whole neck of the guitar.with practice you will start to see the "next" chord..
By 4-note chords you mean including 7ths, and 9ths etc?when you have a strong foundation with triads..then you can start with 4-note chords..and from there to extended and altered chords..
I LOVE deeply DEEPLY Brazilian music, and have also been learning the (cant remember number of) basic Jazz chords I meed to grip. Help me with something confused me earlier on please?
I was watching this video: Jazz Guitar - Learning 7th Chords - MonkeySee At about 00:20 to 00:54 He is showing the fingering of a Major 7th chord, and then showing how you can change it to a Dominant 7 chord. Now he says he lowers by a semitone the 7th. I dig that. But it is hard to know what his fingers are doing and it looks like he raises the 3rd a semitone...?
I tried to find Dom 7 fingering and found this site, and the pattern of the fingers looks exactly like his:
Guitar Chord G+7 - G dominant seventh, sharp fifth at CHORD-C
See the picture lower left and compare with his finger pattern. So that confuses me a bit. But I am waiting for you to tell me I am wrong, of course
Wonderful wolf, and thanks man! btw do you know any good free video that looks into diatonic harmony you'd recommend?this will take some time...a through study of diatonic harmony will be of great value in the study of how chords work together..and are used in creating melodic statements..
play well
wolf
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I have to ask~~~~why only the harmonized scale? Originally Posted by artcore
I just love the idea of there being no rules though also accept structurepick up some of the cords from that, alter some...watch your base notes, it goes on and on....There is no rule that says you can't use some crazy cord...It seem to me that you can almost always justify a weird cord if you look at it hard enough...
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I use a harmonized scale as a starting point...Everybody has their own approach...Just start simple and build from there...I'm still pretty much at the simple level...Rules are good, in my opinion,but guys can break rules
too, you won't get arrested by the jazz police....
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what I am really focussing on right now is triads, and trying to get a feel of the whole neck opening up to me. EVEN though it is true that I put the guityar down for quite a while, somehow thers been a brewing deep.
I was looking at a diary I had kept from last time when i was 'all serious', and I also kept an online file doc. I notice that I was ODing it on practice and I think thats what put me off (though no doubt it would also have been fruitful)
THIS time I am determined to have FUN, to P L A Y.
SO, like I say I am focusing on 3 note triads, and when i get comfortable with feeling where they are is when I will begin with the 7ths etc, but I am already now learning the jazz chord grips again, which I spontaneously use with Brazilian plucking rythyms which I love
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Good advice given by many is to work on songs, keep it simple but make sure you like the song...you need to learn your triads, then your drop 2 and2/3 cords...Check out Ted Greene's cord chemistry...Pull stuff off the net, find books that you like, or a good teacher....if possible...set a course for yourself, determine what you want out of playing guitar...I need to take my own advice!.....
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Thanks Originally Posted by artcore
...you got me all curious yellow. What are drop 2 and2/3 cords?? Can you explain it simply.
I FEEl that if I get good with guitar i would be a good teacher. Why? because of my long struggle. of not gettin 'it'
When i began guitar some years ago i didn't have a computer and relied on a guitar book which was actually good...? And I practised triads, but could not click what to DO with them, even though that may sound weird.
I think some people dont click with things because there is a MISSING LINK. EVEn some guitar teachers might not get through.
Here's another recent thing. I really clicked with the triads after Justin Sandercoe's help on video. Just him saying, and really emphasizing ' FIRST REALLY understand where the ROOT notes are, THEN the shapes. That really clicked with me lol, However though he mentioned the D shape, he didn't mention the other shapes at the top --near the keys--and I had a remembering 'ahaaaa' moment when i remembered the shapes start there. It is strange learning how when things click they click. So because i have struggled, i feel I could get through to people
SOME may think it not cool to spoonfeed because it is better the student discovers things, and there is some good in that. it is a great feeling. BUT, these are technical things, and what you cant teach is the creativity itself. So i WOULD spoonfeed the technical side, because i know what a fukin drag it can be to not get things. Not that i do NOW, but --you know what i mean. You feel something when you breakthrough dont you? So real good teachers, even from video, or text, can do this for the person it happens for
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Elixzer,i have been playing/studying music for about forty years now,and have enjoyed reading your posts.Just about everything you mention has rung a bell in my head.I can assure you everything you have gone through and are going through is normal and something everyone goes through.We all have days when we feel we are nerver gonna get it and then all of a sudden a breakthrough day.You mentioned missing links,i may be wrong here but i feel that for you this may be some basic music theory,now i am not suggesting becoming a music professor but i do believe that knowing how scales are constructed and how chords are built from them,including a bit about how chords are voiced would really help you.Drop 2 and drop 3 chords refer to the way the chords are voiced.In other words where each degree of the chord is.I can explain this further if you like but a quick google search might save me a lot of typing.Hope this helps a bit.
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OK cool. I have found a good looking video where this guy is explaining a lesson 1 about drop 2 chords. I will watch it after. Originally Posted by gingerjazz
What I need uyou or others here to remind me now is this. I am getting used to 3 note triads all over the neck but need to know if and how I can now learn to form these triads with a 7th.
I mean I am aware that there are major 7ths, and dominant etc. I am practising the grips for the most common jazz chords. But am wondering for example are there version of these for each of the three strings, 123, 234, 345, 456?
Well it will of course mostl likely be 4 strings.
basically I am now ready to begin finding and learning how to add the 7ths to the 1,3,5 note triads is what i mean lol
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Drop 2 chords refer to the spacing between intervals. In a chord that is 1,3,5,7....two chord tones are skipped when applying the second note. So 1,3,5,7 now is 1,5,7,3..in other words you dropped "two" tones. 1st inversion of that would be...
3,7,1,5
2nd would be
5,1,3,7
3rd inversion is
7,3,5,1
This same spacing applies regardless of the tonality of the chord..Dom, Minor 7, Minor 7b5 etc...
Originally Posted by elixzer
Yes...you can find them all over the spectrum. You can also play 3-4 note arps on 1 string, or 2,3 etc....You can have very large spaces between these tones when building arps/chords by "dispersing" the tones in large intervals, octaves etc...they do not need to be in sequence...I would get a good handle on organization first before getting to crazy...Last edited by brwnhornet59; 04-08-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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THANKS
I have just beghun to look at this video
Drop 2 Chords - Lesson 1
And remember me asking about how to find triads with 7ths? He says in video right at beginning "take this Fmajor 7", and it clicked, again you just look at the shapes at the top/bottom of the neck. So if I move that shape up 4 strings i get the FM7. I DID know all this in the past but mind plays tricks on you. It is quite funny LOL
IF I have it right
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By the way. One of my favourite melodies, harmonies, and songs I love is Round Midnight. Can anyone suggest a reasonably easy beginners style version online I can try and play and explore please? if so please link me to it?
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thats a good explanation brwnhornet, I always recommend "Cords Galore" by Jack Petersen for learning these drop systems...
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Two good books for you (and me) at this point: Originally Posted by elixzer
1) Jody Fisher's "Complete Method for Jazz Guitar" (or something close to that) contains 4 volumes. One volume is called "Mastering Chord Melody" - it uses simpler tunes in the beginning to "ease you in" to the whole idea. All four volumes are great; this one is very effective.
2) "Jazzing it Up" - by Fred Sokolow. VERY good. I think the first tune is "Shenandoah" - the folk song (don't laugh - listen to Bill Frisell play it on YouTube - then hear Tony Rice play it there, solo, on a dreadnought with 13 - 60s!) Sokolow's book teaches chord substitution more than harmonization of a melody, but you'll get tons of ideas.
kj
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"I find this VERY inspiring, and last few days I have been real focussed on learning triads on all six strings and trying different feelings of the triad, the major, minor, diminished, augmented! I have been concentrating knowing where root notes are on eg 1st, 2nd 3rd strings, etc, then on 2,3,4th string and so on.
So you are saying chord melodies are more so top four strings, of course meaning including the 7th note of course?"
.................................................. ..................................
good start...now remember this is going to take some time to get all this under your fingers..
Tips: learn triads on the top three strings first..(GBE) start in the key of C..now..harmonize the scale..CMA Dmi Emi FMA GMA Ami Bdim..once you have a feel for that and can do it acending/decending..try in in different keys.. G D A E B GB Db Ab Eb F...(again..this will take quite a while to be confident with just the basic triads) then move to the next string set (DGB)
your fingerings will be forced to change due to the different string set..so go slow..again...start in C and go through differnt keys..after you feel comfortable with this string set .. use both string sets to run the harmonized scale..that is .. do CMA Dmi Emi on the DGB set and FMA GM Ami Bdim on the GBE set..in as many keys as you can..
do this with the remaining string sets ADG and EAD..and do all the above chord scales and skip string set exercises..
to absorbe all this info under your fingers and really KNOW it will take the better part of a year .. so take your time
the results will be amazing...you will KNOW all your triads..and the fretboard will be your friend...as suddenly..Aminor will now appear in several places on the neck and it will be surrounded by friendly chords that it harmonizes with..
after you have this down..then i would suggest you beging the 4note chords 1 3 5 7 .. same routine..same exercises as many keys as possible..
this should move much faster as you are just adding one note to each chord..
good luck with your studies..enjoy the journey
wolf
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I've arranged a very modest version of that piece for my recital this semester. When I get a moment I will do my best to transcribe it for you. It utilizes a lot of quartal voicings, which, is another important and modern approach to harmonized melodies. Originally Posted by elixzer
Ryan
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Hey wolf Originally Posted by wolflen
, I have been experimenting with what you suggested here and feel a real breakthrough. A sense of overall freedom on the neck, and being able to PLAYfully experiment with music---whereas before I had had this thing described in 'Advancing Guitarist'--cant remember the name--but it is a phobia of going up the neck lol. Though if I used a glass slide i would. i though LOVE harmony. This has dawned on me recently. I much prefer the sound of strings sounding off together than I do one-note-at-time note runs.
Now as well as what you advise with the triads, I also have been trying out them with the 7ths which are the Jazz chord grips. I found that my wrist was having to bend even after a little practice, so I was concerned about this, and was trying to watch other guitarists at YouTube (maybe I should do a thread about this so others concerned can find it better. I will briefly outline it here). I realize a lot will have to do with physiology (my hands are small) and position of guitar etc. But I am thus focussing more on shell chord voicings where there is not so much pressure on my wrist, and trying out positions of the neck. I have no problem at all (touch wood) with the triads.
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HI rtmoran, My eyes lit up when I read this. I really look forward to receiving your transcription. Originally Posted by rtmoran
Where is best place for me for understanding and memorize quartal voicings? I have been fervently practicing triads all over the neck for a while and as I told wolf above, getting familiar with them has been a big breakthrough for me. I am also beginning to checkout shell chord voicings. I am not familiar with quartal voicings---yet
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