Is It Possible To Widen An Existing Fretboard / Replace Fretboard With A Wider One?

[Saxophone Tall]

I'm 1m89 (6'2" ?) which was well above average in my youth but below nowadays. You'd hope the country is following suite, but I never had issues there from what I recall. One thing I did notice there: in normal cars I have to put my seat so far backwards (not even all the way in my Skoda, btw) that traffic lights tend to be blocked by the roof if I'm first in line.

The remark above about pin bridges is very true. You can increase spacing at the saddle a bit by slotting/scoring it but there's only so much you can gain with that.
What model Seagull is that, btw? I had one of their mini-jumbos, which had a 1.75" nut and a spread at the saddle that wasn't too much smaller than that of my archtop (which has approx. 56 mm).

Something else to keep in mind: having large hands like you doesn't necessarily mean their strength and resilience scales up. If you get a wide-neck guitar, esp. and archtop with its usually heavier string, your hands will need to keep down those big bass strings at the end of those long fingers (and supposedly proportionally long arms).

As far as flattops are concerned there is an easy solution to all this: the classical guitar! Nut widths can be up to about 53mm I think, and scale lengths of 660mm exist too. You can even put steel strings on if that's a requirement for you; Thomastik have 2 steel sets for classical, and there are a few other string makers who sell sets with a sufficiently low tension.

I have very strong hands. I also play piano. I lift weights, etc. I play golf. My clubs are +7" longer than standard (same damn issue!).

I DID NOT KNOW that steel strings could be put on a classical guitar! But they have no radius.... I do have the (excellent) Yamaha "Silent Classical" but it doesn't spread at the RH. Nylon is great, but it's a different sound, of course.

Which archtop do you have that is 56 mm at RH?

It's the Seagul Concert.

[Saxophone Tall]

What's wrong with an overhanging fretboard? Ouch.

Anyway, I was thinking of taking up sax and sticking a traffic cone in the bell to get more projection, like that guy from Moon Hooch. Don't see why not.

You need a custom-made neck.

Funny, I was ALSO thinking about sticking a traffic cone in the bell of my horn like those guys, doing the kewpie-doll hairdo (like Leo P on bari), etc.

It's only for the entertainment value. And it's stupid and insulting to the instrument.

Wish I'd thought of it... (actually, I did, but not as an actual presentation gimmick. I have more class than that).

But you've heard of them... so, there's "that."

Leo can play, but, well, to each his own. Far too many people used to clown the sax. The a-holes in the symphony still don't take us seriously.

I'm currently trying to devise a way to SHUT THE DAMN THING UP (as I live in an apartment currently. Can't practice sax here).

[RJVB]

The physical aspect of guitar playing isn't just about strength, it's more about applying the just-sufficient amount of strength without getting one of a variety of RSIs.

NB: of course "generic" steel strings can be put on a classical, provided that you pick sufficiently light gauges. I've already tried the Thomastik steel strings for classical, and with those you indeed get the same kind of sound as with a steel-string flat-top.

My archtop is a Loar LH-650. No longer in production but I'm certain the LH-600 has the same spread (and a beefier, "vintage-V" neck profile, which is probably more appropriate for big hands).

[RJVB]

It's only for the entertainment value. And it's stupid and insulting to the instrument.

How about some funny insults to its wooden sibling (first part and esp. towards 2:00)?

(thanks for reminding me of this! )

[Saxophone Tall]

The physical aspect of guitar playing isn't just about strength, it's more about applying the just-sufficient amount of strength without getting one of a variety of RSIs.

NB: of course "generic" steel strings can be put on a classical, provided that you pick sufficiently light gauges. I've already tried the Thomastik steel strings for classical, and with those you indeed get the same kind of sound as with a steel-string flat-top.

My archtop is a Loar LH-650. No longer in production but I'm certain the LH-600 has the same spread (and a beefier, "vintage-V" neck profile, which is probably more appropriate for big hands).

Yes, I know that. Ditto piano / sax. I've played keys since the month before Woodstock; sax since before Nixon.

A good book is called "Playing Less Hurt." Good advice for any instrument: Amazon.com

You know you play piano with your feet?

I thought steel would break a nylon neck....

The Loar LH-600 is 1.75" nut, smaller than the Seagull:

The Loar LH-600-VS Gloss Vintage Sunburst Archtop Acoustic Guitar | Full Compass Systems

What do you think - return the Seagull concert and get a Wu?

Here's a link to the Seagull (which I really like, except I want it wider):

Performer CW CH Burnt Umber Presys II | Seagull Guitars

[Saxophone Tall]

How about some funny insults to its wooden sibling (first part and esp. towards 2:00)?

(thanks for reminding me of this! )

Eric Dolphy, bass clarinet (123:20):

Hey, two questions:

1. Can you play an F# major seventh chord high up the fretboard with F# on the lowest string and the 3rd and 7th? The frets are too close together for me at that point. 25.5" scale, so not the shorter Gibson scale of 24.75".

2. If you push your individual RH fingers straight down over the tone hole, do they touch the sides of the strings? If so, by how much? Do they slide through easily, or are the strings "in the way"?

Thanks...

[sgosnell]

Wu does not, AFAIK, build flat-tops. But Lora will not turn down a commission, and will try to get you what you want, and tell you that it will be perfect. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I would not go to Wu for a flat-top guitar. There are several Chinese factories, however, that will build whatever you desire. Whether it's worth the money is something only you can judge, after receiving the instrument.

I would not put steel strings on a guitar built for nylon strings.

[Saxophone Tall]

Wu does not, AFAIK, build flat-tops. But Lora will not turn down a commission, and will try to get you what you want, and tell you that it will be perfect. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I would not go to Wu for a flat-top guitar. There are several Chinese factories, however, that will build whatever you desire. Whether it's worth the money is something only you can judge, after receiving the instrument.

I would not put steel strings on a guitar built for nylon strings.

I actually sent some of your advice to the seller / luthier who is repurposing the Eastman Jazz Elite 16-7 seven string to a six string for me. This, regarding shaving down the bridge just a tad to be able to re-cut it for 6 shallow "slots" versus a new bridge.

I was in contact with Lora last year regarding an archtop. When I didn't respond back for awhile, she sent me two (2) "what's up" emails. Just a little "pushy," I thought...

Thank you for steering me away from them for a flat-top.

Who are these other Chinese factories? What might be the price?

Are you also against widening the fretboard of the Seagull Concert acoustic? If so, also against increasing the string spacing with the constraints of the existing fretboard (about 1 mm on each side, so not really "enough" but I may not be able to get much more without a full scale custom and $$$$).

[Jimmy blue note]

Wu does not, AFAIK, build flat-tops. But Lora will not turn down a commission, and will try to get you what you want, and tell you that it will be perfect. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. I would not go to Wu for a flat-top guitar. There are several Chinese factories, however, that will build whatever you desire. Whether it's worth the money is something only you can judge, after receiving the instrument.
.

I built a prototype 15" flat top with a double X bracing and it came out so nice as a balance between the sparkle of a flat top and the balanced across the spectrum evenness of an archtop. The X bracing allowed me to tune the guitar.
I sent the design specs to Mr Wu, bracing specs and materials specs and he built it perfectly. I was very pleased. It very much stands up to my own hand built guitar and comes in way lower than I could even afford to build it myself.
He's a good builder. But this is only based on my very good experience and the high standards I have for my own work and have experienced with a Wu built guitar.
But others obviously had different experiences. Mr Wu built for Eastman and they put out some of the most underrated flat tops around, giving the Taylors and Martins a run for the money at an almost impossible price point. Yunzhi has a bunch of former Eastman builders. I believe their catalogue lists flat tops as regular listings and they build them individually so asking for a wide fingerboard/neck is not beyond question.
Who knows what you'll get, sgosnell obviously had a bad experience, I had an excellent one. I've got him building for me, flat and archtop designs.

[sgosnell]

Reslotting a wooden saddle is a matter of a few minutes work. This is assuming the saddle is wide enough to be reslotted, of course, and they come in different widths and styles. The post spacing of the bridge is a consideration, because you can't get wider than that.

Sending two marketing emails isn't really that pushy, IME. I get more than that per day from some companies.

I really haven't gotten too deep into Chinese factories for flat-tops. I don't play them often, although I have a couple. I don't need another. Yunzhi is one factory, which may or may not make flats, I don't really know. I have no specific recommendations.

I just cannot see how it would be possible to have a neck with the fretboard overlapping, and still be comfortable to play. Considering the work involved, a complete reneck would be better, and probably not that much more expensive. But it's your time and money, so do whatever you think you need to.

[Jimmy blue note]

You want to widen a Seagull? Why not? Go for it. Let us know how it turns out. I can't wait to hear.

[Saxophone Tall]

I just cannot see how it would be possible to have a neck with the fretboard overlapping, and still be comfortable to play. Considering the work involved, a complete reneck would be better, and probably not that much more expensive. But it's your time and money, so do whatever you think you need to.

Thanks, it's info like this that makes this forum great! Remember that I'm a saxophone player and I don't have the knowledge of the experienced guitarists here.

The only quote I got for a new neck was from a Woodstock, NY (I was living there) luthier. It was $4000 and he would only do a non-cutout.

[Saxophone Tall]

I built a prototype 15" flat top with a double X bracing and it came out so nice as a balance between the sparkle of a flat top and the balanced across the spectrum evenness of an archtop. The X bracing allowed me to tune the guitar.
I sent the design specs to Mr Wu, bracing specs and materials specs and he built it perfectly. I was very pleased. It very much stands up to my own hand built guitar and comes in way lower than I could even afford to build it myself.
He's a good builder. But this is only based on my very good experience and the high standards I have for my own work and have experienced with a Wu built guitar.

Help me out here. Are you saying he can make a neck and fretboard from scratch? His site doesn't list anything wide enough.

As to the Seagull, are they not that highly thought of? They seem to give the most bang for the buck and is all the guitar I need (except for size) at this point. It really sounds great, looks great, high quality and is easy to play (size excepted, and I "can" play it; I just want wider if I can get it. It gets cramped after a while).

Is there any chance you could post a photo of the special guitar that Wu made for you?

Thanks,

- Jeff

[Saxophone Tall]

Reslotting a wooden saddle is a matter of a few minutes work. This is assuming the saddle is wide enough to be reslotted, of course, and they come in different widths and styles. The post spacing of the bridge is a consideration, because you can't get wider than that.

Regarding RH string spacing, if you push your finger (say your middle one) straight down between two strings right over the sound hole, what happens? Do you touch the sides of the strring? If so, by how much? Does your finger just barely touch the strings, or do the strings have to "part" with some effort to get your finger through?

I ask because while I "can" play the Seagull, my fingers really have to make the strings "part" and I want to play fingerstyle with no pick on this thing. I can play melodies and improvisations on it (e.g., All The Things You Are, etc.) with my middle RH finger, but using more RH fingers means I trip over the strings.

Here's a link to a You Tube video (10 seconds) I just made of me pushing my right hand middle finger through two strings over the sound hole on the Seagull. Is this "normal" sizing, or should my finger not touch (or just barely touch) the strings?

https://youtube.com/shorts/nslPxfD7h_Y?feature=share

I'm trying to determine the optimum, "Goldilocks" string spacing size. My "guesstimate" is 65-66 mm in a perfect world. The Seagull Concert Performer is 50 mm and might offer 53 mm max without fretboard modification / neck replacement.

Thanks,

- Jeff

[Hammertone]

Better call Saul:
About — Koll Guitar Co.
Here's a Hofner Jazzica conversion, including plenty-wide conversion neck, he built for Bob Conti:

[Saxophone Tall]

Better call Saul:
About — Koll Guitar Co.
Here's a Hofner Jazzica conversion, including plenty-wide conversion neck, he built for Bob Conti:

That would do just fine for a conversion to a 6 string. I previously researched Mr. Conti and his 8 string guitar. Kinda expensive, eh?

Nothing on the site remotely resembles that....

[Hammertone]

No idea what Saul would charge. He hasn’t shied away from such custom work in the past. Plenty of other builders out there with basic neck building skills to do it. Cost will be way less than $4K. Whoever gave you that number was simply giving you the f*ck-off number, not a real quote - he just didn’t want to do it.

[wkmandeville]

I've been watching this topic with interest and mild confusion...

Regarding RH string spacing, if you push your finger (say your middle one) straight down between two strings right over the sound hole, what happens? Do you touch the sides of the strring? If so, by how much? Does your finger just barely touch the strings, or do the strings have to "part" with some effort to get your finger through?

I ask because while I "can" play the Seagull, my fingers really have to make the strings "part" and I want to play fingerstyle with no pick on this thing. I can play melodies and improvisations on it (e.g., All The Things You Are, etc.) with my middle RH finger, but using more RH fingers means I trip over the strings.

Very large people sometimes play small instruments. It's rare to see mandolins and violins being scaled up. I'm substantially shorter than you, but my fingers don't fit in that way between the string either, nor do they really need to for good fingerstyle playing.

Are you sure that adjusting your playing position or posture wouldn't go a long way toward fixing the cramping or discomfort you feel playing? Sometimes solutions are hidden in simple ergonomic adjustments.

[RJVB]

I thought steel would break a nylon neck....

No, but they can rip the bridge off, or do other damage.
I repeat: you would need to find strings that have a comparably low total tension as a set of nylon strings. For the trebles it's quite easy: a 0.010" 1st string already has a similar tension as the heaviest monofilament (nylon, CF, etc) high E strings.
The best way to avoid issues is to use one of Thomastik's sets, knowing that they do correspond to "normal-to-light" tension classical strings. Here's the full list of their individual steel strings for CG.

The Loar LH-600 is 1.75" nut, smaller than the Seagull:

I see your Seagull has an 1.8" nut, which may indeed be just a tad wider. My Loar and my former Seagull did have nuts that were almost exactly the same width, but the Loar actually has a wider spacing at the nut than the Seagull had. I think there's less chance to pull the E strings off the fretboard near the nut, so widening the spacing there is a little less risky in that aspect than widening at the saddle.

What do you think - return the Seagull concert and get a Wu?

Maybe. Maybe Jimmy blue note would be willing to give/sell you the plans to the guitar he had Wu build, with an adapted neck (or even help with the initial dealings).

But let's talk about the sound you're after. Would this correspond?

The bass strings E, A, d are round wound on a nylon core for a big warm sound without distracting picking noises. The treble strings are flatwound nylon on a rope core and sound brighter than nylon strings. John Pearse is the perfect set for acoustic fingerstyle guitar.

I agree with the assessment of the bass strings btw; wound nylons do sound better than their steel-core counter parts, and I know players like Chet Atkins would use them on some of their guitars because of that richer sound.
Those strings *will* be safe to use on your classical, so it would be an easy and cheap experiment to see if they allow you to get the sound you're after. If so, your best option would be to trade the Seagull in for another classical, one with specs that help you reach that sonic idea even better. Could be an Eastman; their flat-tops are good enough that they are able to sell a "budget" version of the Buscarino Cabaret, which is a wonderful instrument.

I wouldn't be hammering on this is it weren't clear to me that you're looking for a fingerstyle guitar that doesn't need to have an electromagnetic PU.

[docsteve]

I feel that with all these midgets commenting, there should be a really tall person weighing in It is true that the world is made for people of a certain size, and once you're above this, life gets tricky. (And don't get me started on how everybody feels for people of under-average height, but we really tall ones have to pay extra for just about everything. Size doesn't mean wealth.)

I am 2.03 m tall, which equals about 6'7''. My hands, though, are smaller than yours - I can play a tenth on the piano, not a twelfth like you. I have played tenor and soprano sax without any modification. I can play the ukulele but it just looks daft.

Concerning the guitar and your observations. It seems to me that your concerns are not a matter of finger length but finger thickness. Long fingers are perfectly able to execute small and precise movements within a confined space. It's thick fingers that can cause issues because they can actually get in the way - mostly when you touch an adjacent string accidentally while fretting a note.

As to your right hand video, you do not need to stick a finger between the strings. You pluck them with your fingertip, using a bit of the nail if you wish. Maybe 3 mm of your finger actually go between the strings.

Concerning the left hand: I can play a F#7 barre chord on the 14th fret of my telecaster, and move it up a couple of steps, too. I just tried my 335 copy with a 24.57 scale and I can play a A7 on the 17th fret - after that the body gets in the way. I can easily switch between a Telecaster and a Classical, whose neck is about 1 cm wider, and I don't feel cramped on the Tele.

Now I'm not deying your experience but here is what I do: place the fingers as perpendicular to the fretboard as possible. That's Classical guitar technique. A Hendrix chord isn't your first choice to play with this technique, since your thumb is supposed to rest in the middle of the back of the neck. But I tried, and it's not impossible.

I know this sounds like a nice knock-over argument but have you seen Segovia? That man had absolute sausages for fingers and he still managed to play the most beautiful guitar. (He could also play stretches that would give most people a fright - low F on the 1st fret, E string, an Bb on the 6th fret, e string. Why? Because.)

Long story short: From the photographs in your earlier post, your fingers don't seem too thick to actually get into the way of each other. Place your fingers perpendicular to the fingerboard and you should be fine on most standard guitars. Of course that doesn't mean that a little extra won't help

And finally, there is a guy just a couple of miles from L.A., who makes extra wide necks for electrics, and he has even got an acoustic with a 2'' neck: Big Lou Aspen - Big Lou Wide Nut Electric Guitars

Hope that helps, Stephan

[RJVB]

As to your right hand video, you do not need to stick a finger between the strings. You pluck them with your fingertip, using a bit of the nail if you wish. Maybe 3 mm of your finger actually go between the strings.

+++. Sticking the fingers further down can help give a rounder sound (playing with the fleshier part of the finger) but it's also a perfect way to "get stuck" when playing faster.

I know this sounds like a nice knock-over argument but have you seen Segovia? That man had absolute sausages for fingers

Another player who's a virtuoso with an impressive bulk: Richard Smith.
One advantage both undoubtedly have is that they most likely learnt to play well before they developped their bulkyness.

[Saxophone Tall]

No idea what Saul would charge. He hasn’t shied away from such custom work in the past. Plenty of other builders out there with basic neck building skills to do it. Cost will be way less than $4K. Whoever gave you that number was simply giving you the f*ck-off number, not a real quote - he just didn’t want to do it.

I think it was a real quote. He charges $10,000 for a custom guitar. The Luthiers that I've looked into charge at least $6,000 for a custom guitar.

[Saxophone Tall]

I've been watching this topic with interest and mild confusion...



Very large people sometimes play small instruments. It's rare to see mandolins and violins being scaled up. I'm substantially shorter than you, but my fingers don't fit in that way between the string either, nor do they really need to for good fingerstyle playing.

Are you sure that adjusting your playing position or posture wouldn't go a long way toward fixing the cramping or discomfort you feel playing? Sometimes solutions are hidden in simple ergonomic adjustments.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. And the other way around. Just look at Lisa Simpson and her baritone saxophone! (my bari fits me perfectly and looks like a tenor on me...).

What's not in the video - and this is hard to describe - is that my right hand and fingers feel like they are grabbing a set of tweezers - too close together between thumb and fingers - to feel comfortable without wider string spacing. Hopefully that makes sense.

Anyway, do you have to "push" your RH fingers between the strings, or do they "glide" between them? Mine would essentially sit "on top" of the strings without force (meaning that only a little bit of the finger penetrates the "plane of strings" without force).

Like I said, I "can" play the Seagull, but it does NOT feel "optimum" size. Just like a "too small" suit or shoes.

I "can" play my soprano and alto saxophones without key corks (which make the "tube" of the things bigger, buy it's neither comfortable nor conducive to my virtuoso saxophone technique. It's nothing to do with "adjusting" my technique on sax. The damn things just don't fit properly without modification, after which, they do. See photos (one cork covered with ... duct and painter's tape! since glue failed....)

[Saxophone Tall]

+++. Sticking the fingers further down can help give a rounder sound (playing with the fleshier part of the finger) but it's also a perfect way to "get stuck" when playing faster.




Another player who's a virtuoso with an impressive bulk: Richard Smith.
One advantage both undoubtedly have is that they most likely learnt to play well before they developped their bulkyness.

I can't "stick the fingers further down." They only penetrate the "string plane" by a little bit without pushing the strings apart.

Do your fingers slide between the strings? Grace them? Or do you have to push?

Bird (Charlie Parker) also had "sausage" fingers, but they were not long nor his hands or palm big, so they fit the "tube" of the alto sax fine.

I cannot play the wonderful King "Super 20" (Cannonball's horn) alto sax because the bell is situated such that there isn't enough room for my RH fingers. It's like sticking them in a small tunnel.

I have a "singer songwriter" guitarist friend who is 6'9" (3" taller than me). He's also a bigger person. He'd make a good offensive tackle.

His hands are about the same size as mine. His fingers are actually a little bit thicker than mine.

His acoustic guitar (a Martin) is normal size.

But all he does is strum chords. He's not a Jazz player nor playing tricky Jazz chords with movement.

I showed him my Matt Raines Gibson 335 clone 7 string guitar converted to a 6 string and he played it (1.8" nut, 61 mm @ RH)....

He LOVED it!

[AllanAllen]

This is how you want the neck contour?