Playing/practicing with others rather than oneself

[jazznylon]

Hello everyone I decided to come back to this forum as I value the advices and people here. But anyways forget about that what I want to get to is about growth and improvement in general. Is it true that one gets more out of playing with others rather than practicing by yourself? And if so by how much? I do play with others here and there for each week but if its true thats the case then one might as well look for somebody to play/practice with for the bulk of the days to come..

[AllanAllen]

The biggest benefit for me is to play with people better than me. Usually they give advice like try it like this. And what they recommend is way simpler/streamlined than what I’m trying.

Often times I can tell what’s not working, like my time is off or I keep going for a major 6th when it’s clearly a wrong note. I’m seriously drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

[jazznylon]

The biggest benefit for me is to play with people better than me. Usually they give advice like try it like this. And what they recommend is way simpler/streamlined than what I’m trying.

Often times I can tell what’s not working, like my time is off or I keep going for a major 6th when it’s clearly a wrong note. I’m seriously drawn to it like a moth to a flame.

Yeah I can see that. There were times in the band that I'm in where I keep hitting wrong notes, on one occasion its the tune perdido that I was completedly lost in soloing since I was trying to wing it by ear without knowing the form instinctively (ironic since its called 'perdido' ). But yeah some other times I play well by chance, like some time ago I played with this prodigy guitar player on Donna Lee and everything came out real well somehow, I should probably get back to him and see how he is doing

[pamosmusic]

For me I guess it’s less about the benefits of one vs the other, but just that I want to play with other people.

If I want to play soccer, I’m not really concerned about the benefits of playing a game vs practicing. I have to practice to get better, but like ………. I want to play, right?

That said, there are some things you can’t really practice without other people. Accompanying, in particular comes to mind.

[jazznylon]

For me I guess it’s less about the benefits of one vs the other, but just that I want to play with other people.

If I want to play soccer, I’m not really concerned about the benefits of playing a game vs practicing. I have to practice to get better, but like ………. I want to play, right?

That said, there are some things you can’t really practice without other people. Accompanying, in particular comes to mind.

I see. I always enjoyed playing with other people but I do obsess about trying to get better than before. Generally if there is a more efficient way of doing things I'm all ears

[pamosmusic]

I see. I always enjoyed playing with other people but I do obsess about trying to get better than before. Generally if there is a more efficient way of doing things I'm all ears

Me too. I also kind of love practicing … and you have to practice to get good at playing with people. But you also have to play with people to get good at playing with people.

So it just depends on why you’re doing what you’re doing, I suppose.

[pauln]

Part of the advantage of playing with others vs with a background track (or imagining the background track in your mind's inner ear) or using a lead sheet, etc., is the randomness and spontaneity that comes from other musicians. Unlike playing alone, there is an element of the unknown, musically. The effect of that is a much more intense sense of musical awareness, focus, and commitment, especially with the ear.

All that goes up another big notch if your playing with others is performing. Few things in life provide so much musical clarity and focus as performing with others. In a very strong sense, playing with others performing is possibly the best environment and condition for learning things that you would not likely discover just playing alone. The vast majority of what I have learned has been while performing on stage (over 10K hours) and I see every chance to perform as a target rich learning opportunity.

[jazznylon]

Part of the advantage of playing with others vs with a background track (or imagining the background track in your mind's inner ear) or using a lead sheet, etc., is the randomness and spontaneity that comes from other musicians. Unlike playing alone, there is an element of the unknown, musically. The effect of that is a much more intense sense of musical awareness, focus, and commitment, especially with the ear.

All that goes up another big notch if your playing with others is performing. Few things in life provide so much musical clarity and focus as performing with others. In a very strong sense, playing with others performing is possibly the best environment and condition for learning things that you would not likely discover just playing alone. The vast majority of what I have learned has been while performing on stage (over 10K hours) and I see every chance to perform as a target rich learning opportunity.

Sounds very promising. Thanks for telling your experience and thoughts about this

[frabarmus]

Practicing/playing alone and practicing/playing with others sort of "feed each other"... if i practice with someone I see what I need to be working on by myself and, after doing that, put it to the test by playing with someone again and seeing if there's any improvement (for instance). Playing with someone is important for developing "listening skills" and, especially, interplay...
Both alone and together are important, I think.

[RLetson]

My sense is that for most people, "practicing" means "working on technique," which might involve anything from running arbitrary exercises to playing actual music. But playing actual music with others--whether it's informal jamming or public performance--can also function as a learning environment, and what it teaches goes beyond whatever technical skills might be required.

In my limited, amateur experience, making music with others has pushed my evolution farther than my (lazy, undisciplined, unsystematic, occasional) practice regimen. But then, for me music is play rather than work, and I don't expect to ever match the levels of competence of the people I sit in with, let alone make a living at it.

Covid, the (unrelated) death of one long-time partner, and the disability of another disrupted my public-playing opportunities over the last few years, and I have had to seek new situations in order to keep my musical side from stagnating. It's the playing-with/playing-out that pushes me ahead (and sometimes dictates a bit of woodshedding).

[jazznylon]

Thanks for your input guys, yeah it seems like playing with other people is the way to go for the most part. I won't ditch the solo practicing as I like to be prepared when I do show up to play with others. But yeah I guess thats that

[pamosmusic]

Thanks for your input guys, yeah it seems like playing with other people is the way to go for the most part. I won't ditch the solo practicing as I like to be prepared when I do show up to play with others. But yeah I guess thats that

Yeah this is not an either/or thing. You need both.

[rpjazzguitar]

Every new situation demands an expansion of your skill set.

Playing at home alone is one thing. Playing at home for guests is another.
Jamming with friends. Jam at a bar. Small gigs, no PA. Bigger gigs with PA. Concerts.

[EDIT: With piano. Without piano. With drums. Without drums. With tenor, or alto, or trumpet, or trombone. While reading. No reading. etc etc etc.]

Every one of these situations is going to require some learning of the ropes.

You can't learn to be a combo player without putting in the combo time.

And then, if you're unhappy with the results, you've got an idea what to practice at home.

[EDIT: Looking back, I'd say that it took me maybe 15 years of twice a week jam sessions and rehearsals to get to the point where I could avoid embarassing myself in most of those situations. And, I'll never get to where I'd like to be. After all that time, I came to appreciate what is meant by "paying dues".]

[don_oz]

Jazz is a social music as Miles once said. Practicing by yourself is good, however if you don't practice playing with other people and practice creating music with other people, it kind of defeats the whole purpose of playing Jazz. You can't practice comping by yourself, sure you can practice comping to recordings of other musicians but you won't get the same interaction you will by doing it with people in a live setting. It's like learning to speak a language but not trying to go out and practice the language with other people who speak the language, you'll only get so far.

Practice playing with other instruments in duo settings. Duo with guitar, duo with bass, duo with a horn, duo with a piano and duo with drums. This way you'll get to spend time with each instrument isolated and each setting will highlight something you can practice by yourself.

Good luck!

[JazzPadd]

This is an interesting thread! I enjoy reading about the playing experiences and the approaches of others. Many thanks for starting it and contributing to it.

After about a 20 year hiatus from playing, I picked up and dusted off my old jazz guitar lessons from the 1980s, and an old Real Book, and started playing jazz again. My teacher back then, Remo Palmier, wrote out some chord melodies on standards for me so I started with them. Using a simple looper, I played the changes to practice ad-libbing. I did that for about two years.

A colleague at work heard that I played guitar, and introduced me to their partner, who was a regional professional jazz musician. They invited me to sit in on a trio gig (tenor sax, piano, bass). I had about a month to practice. I worked on three tunes with the looper: “All the Things You Are,” “Just Friends” and “Autumn Leaves.” I also worked out solos for each tune. The gig went fine.

While it was interesting to make the transition from playing home alone to playing with others, I didn’t enjoy the gigging atmosphere. To keep a longer story short, it reminded me of why I left gigging decades ago.

When I found out that the venue at which we played that gig also hosted jazz jam sessions once or twice a week, and after an adjustment period (or “learning the ropes,” as someone put it here), I started joining the jams. Back in those years when I was a work-a-day musician, I rarely went to jam sessions. But now I was hooked, and I found it’s what I want to do: play with others.

That was about five years ago. I suppose I’m fortunate to have several venues close by that hold open jazz jam sessions, so in any given month I can participate in 7-8 sessions; usually it’s 3-4. I’ve become a regular at these venues, and am known to most local musicians. It’s something like a community of jazz players that range from beginners and amateurs to semi- and full-time pros.

Sometimes I get invited to sit in on a gig with others (just last weekend I joined a quintet at a local jazz festival), and a while back I was asked to go on tour with the sax player that got me involved with the local music scene. But I’m happier with the jam sessions. I’ve written about these elsewhere, keeping a jam session journal here on JGO.

I get it that there are multiple reasons and opportunities to play with others and that each of these has its own approaches and skill sets. But since everybody doesn’t have to do everything, I think that each of us might have to figure out which of these opportunities is for us. Barring going pro, at least for me, that narrows the list quite a bit. Although I had a small recording studio back in the day, today I rarely record at home, except perhaps once in a blue moon on a smart phone. So for my context, playing with others is mostly through participating in these local open jam sessions.

This context of playing jazz with others at jam sessions informs my practicing while playing at home alone. But rather than working my way through exercises (which I do understand are invaluable for developing skills), and given that my time is limited, I mostly practice tunes in order to play with others at sessions. Someone, perhaps here, once said that everything you need to know about playing jazz is in the tunes. And I agree, to paraphrase what was said in this thread, that the way to learn playing in a combo is by playing in a combo. I use iReal by myself at home while learning the head and changes of a tune, but as soon as I can play those well enough I start calling them at jam sessions.

During corona, when live venues were closed for too many months, I played by myself at home working up a solo set (as many professional musicians had done waiting for the pandemic to pass). It rejuvenated playing by oneself, which can still be fun, but as soon as the jam venues re-opened, I was back to playing with others.

One last thing, since this has already gotten long. Jam sessions, at least from my experience, differ from gigs in that sessions seem more spontaneous, the participants change every week, there are no rehearsals nor set lists, and some are not even managed. There are also unexpected yet generative events (e.g. a local pro shows up, a teacher brings some students, international visitors join while in town for a rugby match, a player who once lived here and moved to Tokyo or abroad to gig is back in town to visit friends and family, etc.). I seem to thrive in that kind of environment, and realized from the few gigs I’ve done here that I much prefer that setting to a gig that has a set list, rehearsals, and so forth. There’s something spontaneously amazing about being on stage with friends and strangers alike and participating in playing jazz, the music we all love. Sometimes, it borders on magical.