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I've started playing with the local 12 piece big band. Used an arch top the first gig. I thought it sounded pretty good for most of the tunes. There's a few tunes that are more rock oriented (Chicago, BST) Brought a tele to the last rehearsal. Stage is too packed to bring both. I'm interested in you guys thoughts. The amp is an AER. Yes I have better options but it weighs nothing and takes very little space. May put a few pedals next gig after doing the olde guitar, cord, amp setup.
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01-08-2022 07:13 AM
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It helps if the list of songs that is going to be played is known. I play in a couple of bigbands. If I am in the unknown at a rehearsal, I usually bring out something like a L5CT and a 335. Regular old style bigband dance music calls for electric archtops. Some tunes like fly me to the moon or Ive got you under my skin, I bring out an acoustic type archtop -similar to a 1920s L5 (with a KA pickups) if the guitar is really to be heard. The more rock things you can not do really well on a regular archtop. In that case I bring out the 335 or a Les Paul. Your tele is great for the funky things.
It also helps if the tunes are somewhat grouped. Old type tunes first, rock/funk things at the end. Switching guitars often in a gig takes time.
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I think it depends on the tunes and how you’re playing them. I’ve never been able to pretend I was Freddie Green on anything but a hollow archtop. Even my ‘60 175 just didn’t have the big, juicy snap to cut through without amplification, and through an amp it “only” sounded like an amplified 175 even using 2 note voicing. The leader I worked for longest and most often liked old school playing but thought the 175 didn’t blend into one instrument with the bass (which is a big part of that sound done right). I used an L50 for years that was amazing for straight rhythm playing - I never put a pickup on it. But I carried a solid body too.
OTOH, you can play anything except classic 1/4 note rhythm comping on any guitar. Ed Bickert anchored Rob McConnell’s big band on a humbucker equipped Tele with wonderful stabs, fills, and chording. Tony Mottola drove Doc Severinsen’s band and many others in the same spectacular way on a 355. So unless the chart or the leader calls for old school rhythm guitar, it’d be the Tele for me.
[edit] Sorry, hotpepper- I was writing and drinking my coffee while you were posting.
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Made the mistake of bringing an archtop once. Brought a tele to a modern big band gig and it was much more appropriate. You can get a good rhythm tone from it and it’s good for all the modern stuff. However you would not believe the bullshit from the trumpets. Somehow in the year of our Lord 2016 or when we it was, telecasters are not socially acceptable in this setting (I mean absolutely fine in a contemporary small band context.) This is gobsmacking to me but it is the case.
Originally Posted by jaco
The bass player was playing electric bass, I might add which just makes it more absurd.
this is one reason why so many pros opt for 335s. Looks like a jazz guitar, is in fact basically a solid body.
TBH I might have to eat my words elsewhere on the forum and get one. It was predicted. The 335 comes for us all; if only because I am fed up of non guitar players having opinions about what gear I should be using and if it’s a 335 I can play it on most gigs.
175 might work if you have round wounds on it.
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(Don’t play a 335 if it’s a vintage style dance band though haha.)
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I bring only 1 instrument to the big band gigs. Eastman AR610 with a clip-on condenser microphone + LoudBox mini.
My ES-175 has not come out of its case many years.
My rig is a one trip from the car to the gig.
In my world the guitar is part of the rhythm section and should not stand out.
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And so it should be! You can do it well on any guitar. You can even emulate Freddie Green on a Tele, although it's a different sound from that of a honking acoustic achtop - the attack is softer and the decay is much slower, for a totally different rhythmic feel. And it just doesn't sound like an upper extension of the acoustic bass, like an acoustic archtop does. But it can be fantastic. Unless your band is going for a pure and classic swing vibe, you can make it work wonderfully well. Originally Posted by BBGuitar
For inspiration, here's a truly fine big band version of Things Ain't What They Used To Be by Rob McConnell's band, with Ed Bickert's Tele holding them firmly in the groove after providing a fine intro. I'm always fascinated by the fact that he appears to be chewing gum while playing this tune. I need to find out what kind of gum he chewed - maybe it'll improve my playing!
This style of rhythm guitar also works great in a smaller group setting, on a Tele or anything else:
PS: in case you missed it, I'm a huge Bickert fan!
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After the first gig, my wife heard one of the trumpet players say" man, that guy can play rhythm". I figured I must have been doing something right. 90% of the tunes are classic swing. The few Chicago, BST tunes ...there's maybe two guitar solos the whole night. I like the idea of a 335. Think I'll stay archtop until my wife buys me one. Thanks guys.
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Funny! I sat in with a local big band for a gig (their guitarist was out of town), and brought my Forshage "Orion;" lots of jokes (from the trumpets!) about "where's the rest of it" and "couldn't afford the whole thing," etc. After the gig, they thanked me, and I've subbed with them several more times. No more jokes about the guitar. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think an important issue is making sure you can control the lower frequency output from the guitar, which is a potential problem with archtops.
So, for rhythm playing I lean towards the Tele because of the crisp sound. I like the way that melts into the rhythm section. For soloing, it's all about what you need to achieve your solo sound. Could be either guitar.
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Low frequency output is more of a problem with humbuckers than single coils imo. For rhythm playing in swing bands I find the tele has too much sustain; I prefer the choppier sound of an acoustic archtop with a bit of reinforcement from a repro DeArmond. Like Marc I have also used my Orion successfully in big bands, mostly with thumbpick and fingers. It has a humbucker so I use a high-pass filter to control the bottom end. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Man, you must be a really good player then, that’s all I can say haha Originally Posted by marcwhy
Funny! I sat in with a local big band for a gig (their guitarist was out of town), and brought my Forshage "Orion;" lots of jokes (from the trumpets!) about "where's the rest of it" and "couldn't afford the whole thing," etc. After the gig, they thanked me, and I've subbed with them several more times. No more jokes about the guitar.
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Im assuming MacArthur Park isn’t in the pad? Originally Posted by BBGuitar
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Also there’s this control on the amp. Starts with a ….b? It’ll come to me. Originally Posted by pcjazz
Of course you could also just not play the bass notes on the chords.
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I can see why people think telecasters look too modern for big bands, after all they have only been around for 70 years.
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Only two years less than the ES175… Originally Posted by grahambop
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The problem with telecasters is people who listen with their eyes.
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And truth be told, most of us would have been fine (and at least a bit richer) if the Tele and the 175 were the only electric guitars ever made. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Ha! Thanks; no, but good enough to fool them! Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Yes, of course I do both these things. The hi-pass filter is another useful knob with a different effect. Try it some time. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I don't understand. explain. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I think Freddie Green would agree with you. Originally Posted by pcjazz
That said, I don't notice the sustain issue when I take my Strat copy to big band gigs. I guess there's a difference in the initial attack of the chord as you strum it, but I'm not affected by that. Even an archtop will sustain more than I might want so I'm choking the chords as needed by releasing left hand pressure.
The thinner sound of the Strat copy (I know the thread is about Tele's but I don't play them) works pretty well, noting that I'm not using a lot of treble in the amp's EQ.
I might react differently if we were recording. These nuances might be a lot more obvious than they are when I'm sitting between drums and a big kb amp in a room with 15 horns.
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Recording your gigs really helps you understand how you sound and how to get better. Neither I nor the band sounds the same to me when playing as I/we do when hearing it from the audience's perpective. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I've started recording as many of my gigs as I can, and it's been eye opening! I bought a small TASCAM digital recorder with built in stereo mics (DR40x) and stick it on a music stand or mount it on a mic stand. Thursday night, I tried putting it on a large mic boom positioned it high above center stage - the capture was really good and sound quality is quite fine. My playing, however, turns out not to be so fine. Now that I know what's not up to snuff, I can work to improve it. I bought the DR40 because it has external inputs for 2 mics or instruments - so I can record 4 tracks at once using the mics plus external jacks. But even the $100 recorders from TASCAM, Zoom etc make fine stereo recordings very easily.
Nothing tells you how you sound like actually hearing how you sound. Once I got past the upset of hearing my faults, I found this to be a wonderful tool for improvement, including choice of guitar / amp / strings etc as well as settings.
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Leave the archtop, take the Tele.
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Gretsch 5422 can cover it all very satisfactorily. The Filtertrons have a snappier attack than PAFs, and, in my experience, have more tonal variety overall. It's a double cutaway hollow-body, like an ES 330.
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