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  1. #151

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Some people can play really fast, get over it? :-)

    Speaking of Mancuso, I really like his nylon string playing. Reminds me of Ralph Towner.

    It’s impressive to me when these virtuosos have depth to them, as with Eleonora. We aren’t talking about circus tricks ...

    there’s another guy on Instagram, turbo bop player but legit. I’ll dig out the name.

    There’s other guys like Hristo Vitchev who posts amazing stuff, but I don’t really if there’s a musical context,
    and it’s all presented as a lesson. On Instagram it’s one minute of amazing ness. But the technical bar is stupid now.
    All players that I like can play amazing stuff at fast tempi. It's really nothing special these days. The technical level is so much higher than in the 50s and 60s.

    DB

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #152

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thats the fella!
    yeah, i knew you meant cecil.

    tbf the benson school already produced pretty impressive players 40-50 years ago. billy rogers, rodney jones and richie hart would come to mind. then later dan wilson, then sharkey. each one having students and followers who raise the bar even higher.

    the dutch guitar school (namely wim overgaauw) has produced quite an amount of talent as well. now jesse (who floored everyone in the early 90s with his virtuosity and rhythmic freedom) is a huge influence. not all is bad in jazzguitar land.

  4. #153

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    All players that I like can play amazing stuff at fast tempi. It's really nothing special these days. The technical level is so much higher than in the 50s and 60s.

    DB
    The reason is I think the pedagogy in guitar technique is getting better. Honestly, I think it will get to the point soon where everyone will be able to play to the limit of their physical capabilities, rather than to the limit of their technique.

    For example, Benson picking and Gypsy picking are both schools that I think the majority of players can master with good instruction and sufficient application and focus. The internet has disseminated that info far and wide, beyond the immediate communities associated with those ways of playing. And there are a surfeit of fast players who use those techniques obviously. Same can be said for any other ‘school’ of technique - economy picking, classical right hand, Holdsworthian legato etc etc

    And in the end, technique is not hard to teach if you have a system and I think what’s changed over the past few decades is there are now systems that work for plectrum guitar. Technique is really no longer remarkable. Because if that I wonder if it won’t pass out of fashion again? We’ll see...

    Raises interesting questions about how music gets created, I guess. Is it necessary to be technically limited to be creative in a certain way, I wonder? Would Horace Silver have made music the way he did if he could have played like Bud?

  5. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Raises interesting questions about how music gets created, I guess. Is it necessary to be technically limited to be creative in a certain way, I wonder? Would Horace Silver have made music the way he did if he could have played like Bud?
    Oh God .. Et tu Brute?

    May I suggest suggest limiting your skill by picking with a spoon in order to facilitate creativity?

  6. #155

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Oh God .. Et tu Brute?

    May I suggest suggest limiting your skill by picking with a spoon in order to facilitate creativity?
    I set myself limitations all the time, I find them very helpful.

    I don’t really seek out technically impressive playing on any instrument (you don’t have to online lol). I don’t hate it, it doesn’t repel me but I don’t seek it out either.

    There has to be more to interest me. The music is the main thing, and then the technique question becomes - can you execute the music? If the music requires a high level of technique, fine. this is obviously a requirement for high level bop and gypsy jazz, and everyone knows how that music is meant to sound, so evaluation of the baseline level of skill of players from those traditions is straightforward. (Which is not to say that’s all it is.)

    However, in jazz the executant and composer /improviser are the same person, so there’s a blurring there compared to the classical pianist performing a concerto or whatever. So it comes back to the music, and whether or not I dig it on all levels.

    For instance Allan Holdsworth was always someone whose playing seemed to come from a sense of musical inevitability. He heard it; so he had to play like that. People don’t talk about the feelings in his music enough, or the way he made the guitar sing.

    Also technique manifests itself in all sorts of ways. It’s obviously not just about speed.

    Bill Frisell’s technique is very hard to copy, it’s a technique of sustain and tone colour; yet if people were concerned with speed = chops they might not realise there’s a technique there at all. Those who haven’t got a bit more into him might think it all comes out of a delay pedal.

    Or Joao Gilberto, for that matter.

    So technique is a very deep thing.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 11:13 AM.

  7. #156

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    So technique is a very deep thing.

    Yeah yeah .. You mention Bill Frisell .. just outside jazz there is all the unique stuff Jim Campilongo does as well


    But I just have a problem with the notion that technique limits expression .. Hard to believe. We can all sometimes agree that technique can drive expression, but that it limits it?

    Technical prowess is off course a separate skill from musicality, but I have a hard time accepting that there is a correlation between higher technical prowess and lack of musicality.

    I have a much easier time accepting this hypothesis:
    If you limit the technique of a players that sounds unmusicial playing a zillion notes pr. second then he will just end up sounding unmusical playing less than a zillion notes pr. minute.


    I mean there probably are some of technical monsters that sound "unmusical" in their own styles, but can play lyrical in less technical styles if need be, but then it's an artistic choice .. I don't know of any, but I'm sure they're there. (Oh you want Grant Green? Sure .. Here you go!)

  8. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah yeah .. You mention Bill Frisell .. just outside jazz there is all the unique stuff Jim Campilongo does as well


    But I just have a problem with the notion that technique limits expression .. Hard to believe. We can all sometimes agree that technique can drive expression, but that it limits it?
    Well I think the problem there lies in the idea that technique is one thing that is scalar quantity and you can have a certain amount of it.

    Its very multi dimensional in fact. Anything can be super deep when you get into it.

    I think particularly with the shred movement etc guitar technique became quite one dimensional as an idea in the minds of a lot of aspiring players. So people became pro or anti technique which makes no sense really. Really it’s more that there were other axes of development. That was always the criticism.... and the good/musical shredders understood this.

    (even within shred you have your legato players and your pickers and so on; not everyone played exactly the same.)

    We all have to use our time on something. Can’t do it all. Musicians all work hard at their craft.

    Obv in jazz guitar the primary concern is usually on the execution of lines and harmonic ideas. Again that’s quite specific. But it’s not the only way to play.... even jazz...

    And some people seem naturally able to develop great speed chops, too.

  9. #158

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    In case of Eleanora though, I don't see either Gypsy or Benson picking. To me it looks like a very well developed alternate picking applied to jazz, and the rest is just her 'feel'. Who teaches like that, any school? I'd be curious to hear her story on that.

    As a teacher I tried to start the beginners off with Gypsy picking a few times with disastrous results. It maybe because I suck at it, but on very basic level I can do it and can show it, and yet it made the beginners sound awful and akward. I dont ever try that again. So observing how everyone is holding the pick different from their very first lesson, I gave up on the idea of universal school of picking. To me it still doesn't exist.

  10. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think particularly with the shred movement etc guitar technique became quite one dimensional as an idea. So people became pro or anti technique which makes no sense really.

    Yeah .. The shred movement is definately what sparked the "but can he play with feeling" movement


    But again, is that movement viewed wrong? .. I mean, it's easy to look back and say .. That ain't musical while totally ignoring emotions and zeitgeist that movement was rooted in. Music is art and an expression and shred was definately about more than just being musical (It hasn't aged well tho .. but that can be said of many things)

    And some of the "good" shredders definately are musical to this day

  11. #160

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
    In case of Eleanora though, I don't see either Gypsy or Benson picking. To me it looks like a very well developed alternate picking applied to jazz, and the rest is just her 'feel'. Who teaches like that, any school? I'd be curious to hear her story on that.
    Alternate picking is a lot harder to learn I think. Requires more complex right hand movement. A lot of people hit a hard ceiling with alternate because of the string crossing mechanics which don’t seem well addressed in conventional pedagogy; those that don’t solve these problems intuitively at speed. So this idea emerges that some people are just good pickers etc..

    That’s not really a problem with Gypsy or Benson picking provided you know how the fingerings work.

    I think alt picking could be better understood. I just wouldn’t (atm) trust myself to teach it. I would with Gypsy picking.

    in my own playing I use a fusion of approaches these days. I don’t think about it much. It’s a mix of gypsy picking, alternate picking and bluegrass style crosspicking. I even did an upsweep on a recording yesterday I was like ‘waaaaa....???’

    As a teacher I tried to start the beginners off with Gypsy picking a few times with disastrous results. It maybe because I suck at it, but on very basic level I can do it and can show it, and yet it made the beginners sound awful and akward. I dont ever try that again. So observing how everyone is holding the pick different from their first lesson, I gave up on the idea of universal school of picking. To me it still doesn't exist.
    Well, maybe it’s not your bag. I think you can only teach techniques you have mastered to some extent (not saying I’m Stochello haha) The secret with GJ picking is the way the pick is held and the downstroke into the guitar. That’s lesson one stuff; basic technique. Upstrokes can wait.

    I teach most kids early on to do this because it helps them keep track of which string the pick is on without having to anchor or look. Free strokes are much more problematic in this way.

    But in general with more advanced players if it isn’t obviously broke I don’t fix it.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 12:07 PM.

  12. #161

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Obv in jazz guitar the primary concern is usually on the execution of lines and harmonic ideas. Again that’s quite specific. But it’s not the only way to play.... even jazz...
    And some people seem naturally able to develop great speed chops, too.
    We discussed this earlier (as most things here, the same things come and go all the time) and I then said that I believe that chops oriented players play more or less the same lines both on both fast and slow tempi. I do not hear Joe Pass or Tal play different lines all of a sudden because of the simple fact that the tempo changes.

    In the discussion here the fast players are called "technical." Why is that? They are simply able to play their lines faster than others. Their voice does not change in ballads, same language, different tempo. Personally, on faster tempi I play the same stuff that I would play on ballads. Different feel but the voice is the same.

    Also the "soul" thing does not make sense (fast players are often depicted as technical and soulless). Yet they play the same melodic stuff as in their ballads. I do not get the discussion that fast players lack something in their musicality. If they do, they will lack it on all tempi. Has nothing to do with speed itself IMHO.

    DB

  13. #162

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah .. The shred movement is definately what sparked the "but can he play with feeling" movement


    But again, is that movement viewed wrong? .. I mean, it's easy to look back and say .. That ain't musical while totally ignoring emotions and zeitgeist that movement was rooted in. Music is art and an expression and shred was definately about more than just being musical (It hasn't aged well tho .. but that can be said of many things)
    Well I was actually surprised at the enduring influence of EVH among the generation below me. Shred was also associated with jock-rock and a certain vibe. I think a lot of that has faded; people are just in it for the playing.

    I think actually good guitar players in any genre always have a lot of respect for specialists in other areas.

    And some of the "good" shredders definately are musical to this day
    Yep. I mean it’s not my favourite thing to listen to, but a good musician is a good musician.

  14. #163

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    We discussed this earlier (as most things here, the same things come and go all the time) and I then said that I believe that chops oriented players play more or less the same lines both on both fast and slow tempi. I do not hear Joe Pass or Tal play different lines all of a sudden because of the simple fact that the tempo changes.

    In the discussion here the fast players are called "technical." Why is that? They are simply able to play their lines faster than others. Their voice does not change in ballads, same language, different tempo. Personally, on faster tempi I play the same stuff that I would play on ballads. Different feel but the voice is the same.

    Also the "soul" thing does not make sense (fast players are often depicted as technical and soulless). Yet they play the same melodic stuff as in their ballads. I do not get the discussion that fast players lack something in their musicality. If they do, they will lack it on all tempi. Has nothing to do with speed itself IMHO.

    DB
    Well soul is impossible to quantify of course; speed is.

    And obviously while certain things can be played fast easily (we all know those tricks lol) to play freely and fast requires a high level of technique.

  15. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    A lot of people hit a hard ceiling with alternate because of the string crossing mechanics which don’t seem well addressed in conventional pedagogy; those that don’t solve these problems intuitively at speed. So this idea emerges that some people are just good pickers etc..

    Troy Grady's presentation leaves a lot to be desired and yeah .. he's trying to run a business also .. but realizing that string skipping was the thing that was holding back a lot of my playing and the different solutions to the problem was huge.

    But as you say, after a while it becomes intuitive and your hand does what it does.

  16. #165

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Troy Grady's presentation leaves a lot to be desired and yeah .. he's trying to run a business also .. but realizing that string skipping was the thing that was holding back a lot of my playing and the different solutions to the problem was huge.
    Yeah it’s a typical thing; theres many things like TG out there, promising solutions for money, they can turn into mini cults

    But the focus on string crossing makes sense. And TG’s ideas have been helpful to me. His slow move towards a slightly different way of framing pick approaches shows that his understanding is developing and that’s cool.

    It’s also allowed me to develop my right hand while maintaining the same basic inclinations etc, and I’ve swapped back to GJ style because I realise it’s possible to do it all from one position by using wrist flexion for
    free stokes etc. Plus I can hybrid pick. Woot. So I can play gypsy jazz style if I want but I can also play things like 26-2 with those nasty descending arps, and reverse roll crosspicking on a Macaferri with GJ right hand posture. Which is cool.

    (Some of the less pure GJ players like Birelli worked this all out intuitively though haha.)

    But as you say, after a while it becomes intuitive and your hand does what it does. A fun thing is that it will chose a different solution if you're playing acoustically and need to project and if you're plugged in .. go figure (I've discovered I'll sometimes alternative pick phrases on the acoustic, but I will sweep on the electric)
    muting is the main adjustment I have to make. Is annoying.

  17. #166

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    (TBF there’s also a lot of kids on Insta who think they are the love child of John Mayer and Isiah Sharkey...)
    Lol. Can they do that stuff and dance at the same time?

  18. #167

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Yeah .. The shred movement is definately what sparked the "but can he play with feeling" movement


    But again, is that movement viewed wrong? .. I mean, it's easy to look back and say .. That ain't musical while totally ignoring emotions and zeitgeist that movement was rooted in. Music is art and an expression and shred was definately about more than just being musical (It hasn't aged well tho .. but that can be said of many things)

    And some of the "good" shredders definately are musical to this day
    Get a Jazzmaster. It's for emotional music.

  19. #168

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Get a Jazzmaster. It's for emotional music.

    Way ahead of you!


  20. #169

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    ^^^
    Love the colors.

  21. #170

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    I must be part of same ancient religion. I don't like being photographed, videoed.
    I'll get off my high horse and stop thinking about it. The days of intrigue are over.

  22. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    Lol. Can they do that stuff and dance at the same time?
    No. No they cannot.

  23. #172

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    No. No they cannot.
    It's a completely outdated skill.

  24. #173

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    I want to be the world's slowest guitar player.

  25. #174

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I want to be the world's slowest guitar player.
    My God ... So musical ... Such feels

  26. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol
    I want to be the world's slowest guitar player.
    That might be even more difficult to pull off than the fast one..

  27. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    My God ... So musical ... Such feels
    Worked fine ( entire career ) for one D.Gilmour..............................

  28. #177
    I guess Duke Ellington was correct he said there is only two types of music Good or Bad he did not add any other qualifiers.