The value of a musician

**Alter** · 02-05-2020, 04:51 PM

Lots of musicians and bands these days only make an album in a digital format, just for online and streaming platforms, especially on smaller labels. Not much point of actually paying for a physical cd, even for promotion these days digital is more in demand. It makes more sense to invest the money in making a few videos.

**sgosnell** · 02-05-2020, 07:56 PM

My SIL and his band released an album fairly recently, a mix of electronic and live performance, which I bought because, well, it's my SIL. My purchase included a CD, a cassette tape (!) and electronic downloads. I sprang for the big package, which also included a t-shirt. I didn't realize anyone was still using cassettes, or even making them for use. No vinyl, though. The company was Strange Daisy in NOLA, if anyone is interested, and I have no clue about the cost or payout.

joelf · 02-05-2020, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by pcsanwald

I went with vinyl for my album for this reason. My reasoning: in addition to being a jazz musician, I'm a huge jazz fan. I go to concerts/gigs all the time, buy music, etc. I expect most people that are going to buy my album are also this way, they are big fans.

I know no one, not one person, that buys CDs that does anything other than rip them, and throw them away. If I buy a CD at a gig (which I try to do whenever possible because I want to support this music), I rip it, and throw it away. I play with a fair amount of younger players and I've never met one that owns a CD player. I've met quite a few who own record players and are into vinyl.

The problem is, vinyl is more of an investment, way more than CDs so it's risky. Obviously you can charge more, I've never had anyone blink at paying $20, and I always say at shows "if you can't afford $20, come talk to me and we'll work it out". Everyone always just pays $20. People who still want to buy music are just not that price sensitive in my experience, in the US.

The only argument I've ever heard for making a CD in 2020 is that the jazz radio industry still works off CDs. I just made the personal decision not to worry about that, and not do any traditional jazz radio promotion. Maybe I missed out on a sweet record deal or tons of sales, but, I'll just have to live with that uncertainty. It doesn't keep me up at night.

If people want to rip, then throw away CDs---salud---as my Italian friends say. I only hope one thing: that they at least file an image of the liner notes/art work on their PCs. I'm sure I'm dreaming, but, damn it all, the accompanying booklet is part of the whole aesthetic CD experience. At least vinyl buyers have that, meaning the original notes and art and not an image.

A funny thing, and a drag in my case, about your observation about radio stations using CDs: Though I've been fortunate to have gotten airplay for my solo project on some major stations, I now have been informed that radio stations will throw away duplicated CDs (ones generated from a computer and not a house like Disc Makers). They will accept and play replicated CDs (those with stamps on the disc, indicating they were cut by a firm like Disc Makers).

My CDs are 'home grown'. I had a bad experience with Disc Makers and pulled my project. I have non-cardboard CDs in thin jewel cases with liner notes and photos duped from my producer's PC. The disc labels are paper labels purchased at Staples. That's what I can afford, that's what I can offer---and they look pretty damn professional. I'm sure some stations would toss them, but that's life---you play the percentages. I got in under the wire at WNYC and WQXR. Maybe this replication trend as industry standard is new? I only found out about it weeks ago.

The third avenue I think all of us recording ought to explore: Internet radio. Probably wav or mp3 files is all that's physically required once you're in the door. And airplay is, of course, worldwide---just like conventional radio since almost all stations now stream or podcast...

**pcsanwald** · 02-06-2020, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

If people want to rip, then throw away CDs---salud---as my Italian friends say. I only hope one thing: that they at least file an image of the liner notes/art work on their PCs. I'm sure I'm dreaming,

I *love* liner notes, have gotten so much joy from reading them, and..... I never do this. Am I supposed to go on my computer later and read the files? I try to stay off my computer these days, I'm not going to do this. it definitely makes me sad that this important aspect of the music has been lost but, for me, I can't remember the last time I saw liner notes, and I try to buy and listen to a lot of music!

I'm not surprised at all radio stations trash duplicated CDs, they most definitely don't last forever. I remember leaving a duplicated CD in the sun and had it completely wiped.

joelf · 02-06-2020, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by pcsanwald

I try to stay off my computer these days...

Then you're rare...

**wintermoon** · 02-06-2020, 01:23 PM

I never toss them, if you want to toss them I'll give you my addy and you can send them to me.
I bought a Houston Person cd recently containing 2 of his late 60s organ sessions and was up last night reading the liner notes w a magnifying glass. Kinda prefer lps for that reason.

**lammie200** · 02-06-2020, 01:30 PM

I sometimes go CD shopping like I used to do for records and cassettes. There are still a few places around me that sell them both new and used. They are slowly closing, however. Also, I don't toss them. I rip them to Apple Music and listen to them everywhere I go. I keep the CD's in boxes in the garage, but if I had the space I would keep them on bookshelves in the house. Liner notes, etc.

joelf · 02-06-2020, 02:35 PM

I have 2 CD players, and untold full CDs, notes, art---the whole 9. Also a stereo system with a turntable (it was a gift!), and over 160 LPs which I've had for decades. You can get anything you want, media-wise.

Of course, I'm old school. Hell, I'm old...

**citizenk74** · 02-06-2020, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by joelf

If people want to rip, then throw away CDs---salud---as my Italian friends say. I only hope one thing: that they at least file an image of the liner notes/art work on their PCs. I'm sure I'm dreaming, but, damn it all, the accompanying booklet is part of the whole aesthetic CD experience. At least vinyl buyers have that, meaning the original notes and art and not an image.

A funny thing, and a drag in my case, about your observation about radio stations using CDs: Though I've been fortunate to have gotten airplay for my solo project on some major stations, I now have been informed that radio stations will throw away duplicated CDs (ones generated from a computer and not a house like Disc Makers). They will accept and play replicated CDs (those with stamps on the disc, indicating they were cut by a firm like Disc Makers).

My CDs are 'home grown'. I had a bad experience with Disc Makers and pulled my project. I have non-cardboard CDs in thin jewel cases with liner notes and photos duped from my producer's PC. The disc labels are paper labels purchased at Staples. That's what I can afford, that's what I can offer---and they look pretty damn professional. I'm sure some stations would toss them, but that's life---you play the percentages. I got in under the wire at WNYC and WQXR. Maybe this replication trend as industry standard is new? I only found out about it weeks ago.

The third avenue I think all of us recording ought to explore: Internet radio. Probably wav or mp3 files is all that's physically required once you're in the door. And airplay is, of course, worldwide---just like conventional radio since almost all stations now stream or podcast...

I've had people refuse to play my paper-labeled CDs, claiming the labels might peel off and ruin their machines. I suspect they didn't want to bother.

joelf · 02-06-2020, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by citizenk74

I've had people refuse to play my paper-labeled CDs, claiming the labels might peel off and ruin their machines. I suspect they didn't want to bother.

Who knows? It's like when you don't get hired for a job. They'll never tell you why...

**sgosnell** · 02-07-2020, 07:22 PM

The CD spins pretty rapidly inside the drive, and there is no extra room. If paper on it comes loose, bad things happen. Gluing paper on a CD is a bad idea. If it happens to you once, you won't put another paper-covered CD in a drive unless you're a glutton for punishment, or a slow learner.

joelf · 02-07-2020, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

The CD spins pretty rapidly inside the drive, and there is no extra room. If paper on it comes loose, bad things happen. Gluing paper on a CD is a bad idea. If it happens to you once, you won't put another paper-covered CD in a drive unless you're a glutton for punishment, or a slow learner.

The labels are self-adhesive. I don't think there's any danger---but I've been wrong before...

**sgosnell** · 02-07-2020, 09:14 PM

It has happened...

Never forget, Murphy was an optimist.

**Rfalcon** · 02-07-2020, 11:09 PM

People play for many reasons. If they enjoy performing and desire no financial gain - I’d that’s how they get satisfaction, or improve their self esteem - that’s great. Every performer has their own needs. If the next guy who comes along wants paying, he needs to be that much better than the artist playing for free. Otherwise, he needs to find somewhere else to play. Or, as others have mentioned, create his venue or niche. There are far more performers out there than the market can sustain.

And fewer people are attending live performances, IMO.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-08-2020, 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

I don't think there's any danger---but I've been wrong before...

That's exactly what Casey Jones said....

**Zina** · 02-08-2020, 07:13 AM

Originally Posted by pcsanwald

I *love* liner notes, have gotten so much joy from reading them,

Same! As soon as I could read I went through all LP records my parents had and read the notes while the album was playing (took about the same time at that reading speed). I imagined it was really the musicians' writing, or at least someone's who was sitting there in the room as they were playing; it felt intimate and friendly somehow.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-15-2020, 04:05 AM

These millennials at an outdoor performance are a reflection of the value of a musician.

**digger** · 02-15-2020, 04:59 AM

Wish I'd had a crowd that big at my last gig!

**Zina** · 02-15-2020, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

These millennials at an outdoor performance are a reflection of the value of a musician.

I think that's a breadline; they obviously can't afford clothes or haircuts.

**cosmic gumbo** · 02-15-2020, 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Zina

I think that's a breadline; they obviously can't afford clothes or haircuts.

Huh? You're looking at $3000 worth of hipster clothes and haircuts, plus another $5000 worth of iphones.

**Marinero** · 02-15-2020, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

These millennials at an outdoor performance are a reflection of the value of a musician.

Zen meditation? Good playing . . . Marinero

joelf · 02-15-2020, 09:24 AM

I felt pretty valued last night: played with my new band (B3; trumpet/flugelhorn; drums; vocalist; my writing/playing) at a favorite venue (Fat Cat, NY) that I have a long history with. Despite a few opening night nerves and musical glitches, we had a great time and so did the very enthused audience, who hung in for 2 sets. and we were paid fairly.

You gotta live for those times---they make all the times you fell crapped on less important, and goose you to do it again...

**Zina** · 02-15-2020, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by joelf

B3; trumpet/flugelhorn; drums; vocalist; my writing/playing

That's a nice combination of instruments. Flügelhorn and Hammond alone sound great together already. A co-inmate plays over a record by a female organist and a drummer now and then - the woman plays barefoot for some reason - and always draws casual listeners.

**Zina** · 02-15-2020, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by Patlotch

Ripped pants are more expensive.

I believe you, but that's madness.

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

$3000 worth of hipster clothes and haircuts, plus another $5000 worth of iphones.

I wasn't sure whether you were joking, showed the photo to some people here where I live, and those under a certain age laughed or turned up their noses; those 2-3y older confirmed what you said - they still thought it's crazy though.

joelf · 02-15-2020, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by Zina

That's a nice combination of instruments. Flügelhorn and Hammond alone sound great together already.

It is! I hear a flugelhorn sound myself, and try to make the guitar sound that full, fat and dark soloing single-string.

And I had Elliot Bild on plunger mute too, on the out-and-out swingers. The crowd ate it up----and so did I...