What I have learned from playing swing and early jazz

[grahambop]

I know a few who are equally comfortable playing modern styles and retro, mostly bass players, some guitarists. Also noticed that some trad/Gypsy players having attitude toward modern/bop players, and vice verso. I sat in at a gig once that a friend of mine, very good Gypsy guitar player, put together a band with modern jazz guys, just trying to stretch out and venture into the new territory I guess... He called 'When You Smiling' at one point, and those bop cats started giggling and basically treated the tune as a joke. I was thinking, wait a sec, but you didnt perform it very well, how about a versatility?

That was a pretty dumb attitude on their part. Art Pepper recorded this tune at least twice, so he thought it was worth playing. I think I've got a 1980s live version where he plays it on the clarinet - superb. Charlie Parker even played 'White Christmas' (it's on Live at the Royal Roost - I think it was Christmas Eve) and made it sound good.

[christianm77]

Great thread! In NYC, the trad/swing jazz scene is huge. It's a really lucrative scene if you are in, I know people who work 7 days a week if they so wish, there's tons of gigs happening, and it's really fun. Most of the guys I met are in their 20's and 30's. I love it, and like Christian, went through all those realizations about technique, style, chops improvements, etc.

Yeah I know some the NYC cats, sounds like there's a busy scene and not that many players doing that style, apparently there's a shortage of good rhythm guitar players. It doesn't look like it's something that will happen for me, but that's my hot tip if you want to earn some money playing music in New York.... Just make sure you know a few hundred trad and swing numbers and are up for strumming away all night and coin it while 1,000 uber capable Kurt Rosenwinkel wanabees compete for $25 gigs :-).... It might pay for a bed and some lessons with the great and good anyway, I guess...

I know a few who are equally comfortable playing modern styles and retro, mostly bass players, some guitarists. Also noticed that some trad/Gypsy players having attitude toward modern/bop players, and vice verso. I sat in at a gig once that a friend of mine, very good Gypsy guitar player, put together a band with modern jazz guys, just trying to stretch out and venture into the new territory I guess... He called 'When You Smiling' at one point, and those bop cats started giggling and basically treated the tune as a joke. I was thinking, wait a sec, but you didnt perform it very well, how about a versatility?

FFS, this kind of thing baffles me. If Stitt, Rollins and Dizzy can do an uber hip rendition of Sunny Side, why can't these guys. Oh wait. Is it because they are incapable of doing anything which isn't scale patterns and have never learned how to actually swing?

TBH, I think the divide in the jazz world is increasingly not between trad/modern but actually between historically informed players (including boppers and blue note guys) vs contemporary (non stylistic) guys. The players around now don't remember the trad/modern split in the 1950s, also many of the actual socks and sandals UK trad guys I've met (as opposed to early jazz stylists) are frustrated beboppers anyway haha.

While you can just stick your head in the sand and pretend it's 1925, 1939, 1953 (whatever your year of choice) or spend your time only playing originals and 'advanced reharmonisations' of the ten standards you actually know, this is ultimately a false dichotomy for modern music (look at Miles Okazaki for example, or Ethan Iverson) but for lesser players there's a lot of BS based around justifying what they are doing or latent guilt about what they are not doing. IMO the history of the music (not just Bird, although he is a big deal) is tremendously inspiring for future directions.

Another thing early jazz has done for me is sharpened my dislike for players who run scale patterns on everything with no regard to melody... I think that's just bad playing in any style.

Personally, I agree with Christian, the full time commitment to just the old jazz is a questionable thing. I like blues, I like some bop, I like Latin, I don't see being just that cat who's dressing like it's 1939, and trying to nail CC tone by hunting down exactly the same gear. Something is not right about it lol! In a perfect world, I want to create something fresh and unique, mixing up styles, and wouldn't want to be a museum artifact. Meanwhile, though, swing music is what I found myself doing the most.

Likewise. I'm finding with my own practice I am now concentrating on harmonic changes playing - which to me is non specific - harmony is harmony. And triads always sound good as mentioned above...

I am also working on my general musicianship... Learning 'a style' is much less interesting to me now, but I figure if you are good musician, have checked out the records and can play what you hear, you don't actually need to spend hours learning a style, unless you have a burning desire to the play the guitar exactly as it was played by x in the year y. If you listen before you play, you will play something appropriate for the performance without thinking. This is the dream...

Btw., Christian mentioned different styles of trad, like Chicago classic jazz, Kansas swing, New Orleans... I know Gypsy jazz and American swing, that's it, I would love to know more with examples and stuff... And what style was Louis Jordan? Because on a grand scale of things, he's probably my absolute favourite artist and the biggest inspiration.

Good idea, I will get around to this if no-one else fancies doing it. Little bit of a project to be sure, so might take a few days.

Louis Jordan was coming in on the tail end of Swing, but his best known music was really early R&B, jump blues, heavily influenced by Boogie Woogie and Swing music and so on, not to mention the influence of Charlie Christian's electric revolution which made it possible for small bands to punch above their weight sonically (and spelt the end of the big band era). If you are looking for the missing link on guitar, check out Tiny Grimes (he plays on some early Parker stuff too)... Jordan's a big influence on Gary Bartz don'tchaknow... I reckon Wayne Shorter too haha... Probably many guys of that generation as he was someone you would hear on the radio.

[christianm77]

Wow! Great thread! I'm a huge fan of the swing and early jazz stuff. I just wish I could find other players in the Dallas area that I could jam with. I suppose I could go towards the Western swing route and channel the ghosts of Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. They could certainly swing!

Well that's a whole other area (apologies for missing that one out) the Western swing thing is a fascinating fusion of two great American musics...

[christianm77]

That was a pretty dumb attitude on their part. Art Pepper recorded this tune at least twice, so he thought it was worth playing. I think I've got a 1980s live version where he plays it on the clarinet - superb. Charlie Parker even played 'White Christmas' (it's on Live at the Royal Roost - I think it was Christmas Eve) and made it sound good.

Art Pepper's rendition of Jazz me Blues is pretty hip. Must check out his recording of Smilin'.

I always like to hear old tunes played by more modern players. If a tunes good it's good. I'm surprised more modern guys don't takle Limehouse Blues - very interesting changes. There's a lot you can do with that harmonically.

The Coltrane/Adderley version is cool..

I think a lot of the rep thing comes down (at least in London) to the fact that a lot of modern players go through music college and learn the same 30-50 tunes which they play all the time on gigs. These are largely culled from the classic core recordings of the '50s - such as the Miles' Prestige albums, for example. But the repertoire of the musicians of that era seemed to include a lot of the older rep - they'd checked out these records.

My favourite record for this is I think Gil Evans, New Bottles, Old Wine....

[grahambop]

That was a pretty dumb attitude on their part. Art Pepper recorded this tune at least twice, so he thought it was worth playing. I think I've got a 1980s live version where he plays it on the clarinet - superb. Charlie Parker even played 'White Christmas' (it's on Live at the Royal Roost - I think it was Christmas Eve) and made it sound good.

Here are the Art Pepper versions, 1957 and 1981:

[Hep To The Jive]

Yeah I know some the NYC cats, sounds like there's a busy scene and not that many players doing that style, apparently there's a shortage of good rhythm guitar players. It doesn't look like it's something that will happen for me, but that's my hot tip if you want to earn some money playing music in New York.... Just make sure you know a few hundred trad and swing numbers and are up for strumming away all night and coin it while 1,000 uber capable Kurt Rosenwinkel wanabees compete for $25 gigs :-).... It might pay for a bed and some lessons with the great and good anyway, I guess...

A lot of players wised up to it lately, actually, or so it seems.. Def. on the Gypsy Jazz scene, which easily crossing into trad swing, I see a lot of young cats trying to break in. I'm not sure there's a shortage of good rhythm players, though, I know a few who are ONLY specialize in rhythm, and refuse to take solos, however strange it seems.

The greatest thing about NYC, you can meet the best of the best, and sit in and jam with them. I go to a hot jazz jam session where guys like Vinny Raniolo, Olli Soikkeli, Stephan Wrembel show up after their gigs and playing almost a whole set sometimes, and you can be sitting with them, exchange solos, playing rhythm, it's a great experience! I feel like that's exactly why moved to live here, just to be in this culture of jazz!

[Bluedawg]

I played in two local swing bands here in AZ for several years and had a blast. Mainly rhythm with the occasional solo.

I used my Heritage Sweet 16 with a floater pup and a Carr Rambler for amplification and it worked out well. I stuck with 3 and 4 string comping on the D through E strings and let the bass cover the low end. One band had a piano and the other didn't.

I'm still playing bass with one of them, but the current music director is trying to relive his High School days so we have been doing tons of more modern big band stuff from the 60s and 70s rather than the almost completely 30s and 40s stuff we were playing before. The 60s and 70 stuff usually has a different flavor of rhythm guitar than the classic swing.

Lots of fun and it really helped my sense of rhythm IMHO.

In the classic swing of the 30s and 40s the rhythm guitar is felt rather than heard .... but if it isn't there you will miss it .... IMHO

Interesting about the comment on memorizing 100s of swing tunes .... my bands played entirely from charts ... which made it easy to have 100s of tunes on hands without requireing 13 or 18 musicians to all have the same memorized tunes in their head ... and allowed for subs to step in when needed.

[woland]

Attention to detail - to play this music convincingly (which I don't think I do) is very difficult, because you have to have a degree of style in your playing - you cant just play anything. A lot of playing the early stuff is about making simple things - arpeggios, melodies etc sound good. Not easy as there is nowhere to hide. You can't just do the Metheny lick and gloss over it haha!

That is one thing that I do not quite comprehend - why do we need to recreate the past? Why not play that music and not pretend that it is not 1923 anymore? I am sure that if you took Pat and dropped him into a jam with Kid Ory he would not have any problems making great music without putting on a boater straw hat (would not fit over his mane anyway ;-).
Either way - great post - thank you. I forwarded it to my jam mates - next session we will try "Tin Roof Blues".

[TheGrandWazoo]

Great topic.

Woland, I completely agree with you. My passion is pre-Christian guitar playing and I do it on a 7-string.

I am actually in the process of setting up a website dedicated to the pre-swing guitar era called www.jazzageguitar.com . I hope to have it prepped by Xmas. The focus will be on showcasing guitar music of the 20s and early 30s with videos, a blog, and lessons.

[cosmic gumbo]

That is one thing that I do not quite comprehend - why do we need to recreate the past? Why not play that music and not pretend that it is not 1923 anymore?

Because we want Wynton to invite us over for coffee...

[christianm77]

A lot of players wised up to it lately, actually, or so it seems.. Def. on the Gypsy Jazz scene, which easily crossing into trad swing, I see a lot of young cats trying to break in. I'm not sure there's a shortage of good rhythm players, though, I know a few who are ONLY specialize in rhythm, and refuse to take solos, however strange it seems.

The greatest thing about NYC, you can meet the best of the best, and sit in and jam with them. I go to a hot jazz jam session where guys like Vinny Raniolo, Olli Soikkeli, Stephan Wrembel show up after their gigs and playing almost a whole set sometimes, and you can be sitting with them, exchange solos, playing rhythm, it's a great experience! I feel like that's exactly why moved to live here, just to be in this culture of jazz!

Nice!

We don't really have any old school jam sessions here in London, which is a shame... That sounds burning. Great to have top people stopping by...

Specialised rhythm players are pretty special.... that said for a small band, many bandleaders do like someone who is a strong soloist.

The biggest difference I think between playing GJ gigs and doing a swing gig is tempos. At least that's the trouble we've had depping swing gigs to GJ players... They tend not to have the medium tempos that the dancers like so much. I don't think there was so much medium back in the day as dancers used to cut the tempo a lot, but these days that's frowned on... It's definitely a separate skill set. Also different repertoire...

[christianm77]

A lot of players wised up to it lately, actually, or so it seems.. Def. on the Gypsy Jazz scene, which easily crossing into trad swing, I see a lot of young cats trying to break in. I'm not sure there's a shortage of good rhythm players, though, I know a few who are ONLY specialize in rhythm, and refuse to take solos, however strange it seems.

The greatest thing about NYC, you can meet the best of the best, and sit in and jam with them. I go to a hot jazz jam session where guys like Vinny Raniolo, Olli Soikkeli, Stephan Wrembel show up after their gigs and playing almost a whole set sometimes, and you can be sitting with them, exchange solos, playing rhythm, it's a great experience! I feel like that's exactly why moved to live here, just to be in this culture of jazz!

Nice!

We don't really have any old school jam sessions here in London, which is a shame... That sounds burning. Great to have top people stopping by.

Specialised rhythm players are pretty popular! That said for a small band, many bandleaders do like someone who is a strong soloist.

The biggest difference I think between playing GJ gigs and doing a swing gig is tempos. At least that's the trouble we've had depping swing gigs to GJ players. They tend not to have the medium tempos that the dancers like so much. I don't think there was so much medium back in the day as dancers used to cut the tempo a lot, but these days that's frowned on... It's definitely a separate skill set. Also different repertoire...

[Hep To The Jive]

Nice!

We don't really have any old school jam sessions here in London, which is a shame... That sounds burning. Great to have top people stopping by.

Specialised rhythm players are pretty popular! That said for a small band, many bandleaders do like someone who is a strong soloist.

The biggest difference I think between playing GJ gigs and doing a swing gig is tempos. At least that's the trouble we've had depping swing gigs to GJ players. They tend not to have the medium tempos that the dancers like so much. I don't think there was so much medium back in the day as dancers used to cut the tempo a lot, but these days that's frowned on... It's definitely a separate skill set. Also different repertoire...

Yeah, in my observation, it's easier for a trad/swing jazz guitarist to cross into GJ than the other way. Those who play swing that I know are usually pretty schooled in jazz in general, have more variety and adopt easier to different styles. The GJ players... a lot of them that I met, they pretty cocky toward anything that deviates from their comfortable zone, for them Django is the only God, and nothing else really matters! lol And yeah, they LOVE fast tempos!

Personally, if I play my own gig where I get to choose the tunes, I can't stand playing more than 3 swing, or GJ tunes in a row, no matter what tempo, I just need a break from that rhythm, and change to Latin, Bossa, or New Orleans groove, or whatever... You know what I mean?

[christianm77]

Yeah the GJ thing is a bit of a strange subculture .... I find it all a bit odd TBH. I have a friend, a sort of escapee GJ guitar player who compared Samois to a Star Trek convention. To be honest, I've never been to any of the big festivals, or hang out in that kind of vibe.... It's a bit to nerdy even for me haha! But I'm sure I'm missing out on hearing some fantastic musicians....

But there are some GJ musicians who are up for transcending it - Stephan Wremble, Sebastian Giniaux etc. I really like these players.

GJ players do have some other feels - Rhumba/Bossa, Bolero, Waltz....

[christianm77]

That is one thing that I do not quite comprehend - why do we need to recreate the past? Why not play that music and not pretend that it is not 1923 anymore? I am sure that if you took Pat and dropped him into a jam with Kid Ory he would not have any problems making great music without putting on a boater straw hat (would not fit over his mane anyway ;-).
Either way - great post - thank you. I forwarded it to my jam mates - next session we will try "Tin Roof Blues".

I don't really understand this either. This is probably a reason why I won't specialise in this music. It suits a certain type of person.