Are you a pro or a hobbyist?

[Aiq]

Hobbyist and happy.

Played full time rock, then country which ended in (gulp) 1983. TV and teacher day jobs, DC trio had a once a month spot for beer money, no gig for a while now.

Aging in place working on tunes and reading.

Good luck to those chasing, very tough.

[Cunamara]

Trying to be a professional jazz musician is really, really hard unless you've got the chops and skills to do studio work and live somewhere where studio work actually happens, or to be able to play orchestra pit work. That's hard, too, but it's a very different hustle from trying to make a living playing jazz gigs. Locally (Minneapolis/St. Paul) there seem to be more musicians playing jazz than there are gigs. With the cost of housing here, I don't know how that math works out let alone in New York City. I suppose this is why gigging pros usually make a portion of their living teaching hobbyists how to play jazz.

In my experience there is a qualitative difference between the fundamental inherent abilities of professional musicians versus folks like me who are just never going to level up to that point. I was reminded of that last night in an ensemble class where it was clear the instructor is hearing and able to immediately extract things from recordings that I don't hear; his listening is obviously deeper, or perhaps better stated, more informed than mine is.

Maybe it's not an inborn talent but a function of having gotten fascinated with music early enough in life and sticking with it through a very important developmental period to develop the neural circuitry needed. When I read biographies of great jazz musicians or listen to/read interviews with them, almost all of them were absorbed into and fascinated by music somewhere between the ages of 8 and 10. At 10 I took cello lessons but it wasn't the instrument I wanted to play, so I didn't put much effort into it and eventually got fired by my teacher. I picked up guitar in college at the age of 20 which I think for most people is too late developmentally. I was interested in other things and made a living outside of music that I really enjoyed and valued, so no regrets. I got to keep music as a hobby rather than adding the stress of trying to make a living from it. That doesn't stop me from wondering what might've been, sometimes.

[Christian Miller]

@Cunamara

Yeah broadly accurate I’d say. There have been times in my life where the majority of my income has been from playing, but the need to spend all your time in airports and hotel rooms declines for many of us over time. Touring is touring. If you are Pat Metheny maybe you get a better hotel, but tbh the experience of touring is pretty universal for the non Mick Jaggers of this world. No amount of niche success within yoir own field mitigates the annoyance of trying to get your instrument in carry on luggage.

OTOH there’s theatre gigs which often seem to enter ‘the arena of the unwell’ to quote Withnail and I. I’m glad I like teaching.

As for jazz - I think that’s always a passion thing. Even for professionals. So that’s something we all have in common and it’s a beautiful thing.


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[joe2758]

Pros and cons to all major life decisions (seriously no pun intended).

The hardest decision of my life was deciding whether to pursue a music career (which realistically would be weddings, restaurants, teaching etc) after a couple years of blood/sweat/tears style practicing, vs a more middle of the road comfortable non-artistic or academic type of career.

I went with the latter. Looking back at the last 20 years since, I did make the right choice. Playing on and off since then, I probably cumulatively only played half those years.

However, there have been moments of absolutely CRIPPLING regret. I would say I probably broke even.

[pamosmusic]

Maybe it's not an inborn talent but a function of having gotten fascinated with music early enough in life and sticking with it through a very important developmental period to develop the neural circuitry needed.

Definitely not inborn talent. There’s probably an aptitude that folks are born with, but I don’t know that that’s terribly interesting. I genuinely whole heartedly believe that you’re about as likely to be born with insufficient musical aptitude for professional playing as you are to be with prodigious levels of aptitude.

The range is really broad and most musicians probably got into it relatively early (some earlier than others — for example I didn’t start playing until I was fourteen and my first music lesson was when I was fifteen so in some real senses you got a good head start on me).

The difference between me and Pasquale Grasso is ENORMOUS. The difference between me and a halfway decent hobbyist is really pretty small, and probably attributable mostly to time.

[GuyBoden]

I'd guess that Hobbyist Jazz Guitarists, with a pro job for income, are the people buying most of the very expensive guitars.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I'd guess that Hobbyist Jazz Guitarists, with a pro job for income, are the people buying most of the very expensive guitars.

Guilty as charged (though now retired).

[Sigmund451]

Im definitely not good enough to be professional. I quite playing for the most part for a really long time. I took up the sax. From there I ventured into making custom sax mouthpieces. I relized I didnt have the talent to really pursue sax either and my focus went to building a business serving musicians. It has allowed early retirement from my mental health career. So music has been good to me even if I was not the one making it.

I pulled my guitars out this summer and started again. I had no intention to try to play "at" jazz. Regardless, I still gravitated in that direction.

As for the above comment about hobby players driving the gear market: It is absolutely correct in most areas. Gigging musicians have a tough time. Affording oodles of high end gear is tough for many.

[Jonah]

Tell that to these guys...

Charles Ives - Insurance executive
Hugo Alfvén - Forestry inspector
Anton Arensky - Professor of Mathematics
William Billings - Tinsmith
Elliott Carter - Professor of English
Edward Elgar - Solicitor
Alberto Ginastera - Inspector of Secondary Education
Philip Glass - Cab driver
Charles Koechlin - Professor of Mathematics
Felix Mendelssohn - Lawyer
Olivier Messiaen - Ornithologist
Modest Mussorgsky - Government clerk
Maurice Ravel - Flight engineer
Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov - Naval officer
Franz Schubert - Schoolteacher
Jean Sibelius - Legal intern
Karlheinz Stockhausen - Phonetics researcher
Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky - Law clerk
Antonio Vivaldi - Priest
Carl Maria von Weber - Royal secretary
Iannis Xenakis - Civil engineer

well... the list is not quite correct. all these guys struggled for certain period and had other job (or supporters) but many of them became quite successful and could earn with music.
Tchaikovsky was actually a star in the prime of his carrier.
Rim.-Kor. -was an very influential professor of Conservatory and the founder of St.Petersburg school
Vivaldi is not relevant as his priest occupation was very formal, his main work was leading of of the Venetian ospedale's (basically it is an orphanage that worked as a conservatory for girls).
Sibelius also made a name during his lifetime and earned with music.
Glass ... I would not even mention.
Xenakis also earned with music later.

Schubert? He was definitely a professional. But he just could not earn enough

I mean that it was not like these guys chose different carrier as lifepath to mainatine their families (or themselves) and to follow music as amateurs.
They just had to survive at certain periods. And also in different epochs it was different too in society. Sometimes one had to become an officer or a lawyer due to his family position or parents' wish.


Ives was an amateur indeed, then Morton Feldman, in baroque period Albinoni and Marcello were dilletanti (meaning those days, they stated openly that they did not earn with music)...

[frabarmus]

Also, Polish pianist/composer Krzystor Komeda was an ear doctor by profession (if I remember correctly)

[Jonah]

To be honest I think if you enjoy your job and it leaves enough time to do music on the level you want to do. It is great.

Only with composing or writing books or painting it is a bit different. You depend mostly no yourself.
In performance art you need to perform - preferably with people and for people, it definitely moves you forward.

I know quite a few amateurs in jazz and classical area who found their niche: they meet once in a while, rehears, perform regularly (though not much) and are happy.
Also in some countries (like in Belgium) there is a state supported system of musical education for adults. Almost every (even relatively small) town has Academia where you can take lessons and rent and instrument for quite a low price.
These Academia's have ensembles - classical, early music, pop and jazz, the level can be different but often it is quite high I should say. Lots of choirs where people of different ages sing.
In Germany it is not that structural (not state organization) but there are a lot of amateur classical orchestras, quartets, choirs that are normally led by some pro musician for who it is also additional money.
I attended some performances and they were amateur but they were quite on the level and fresh, sincere and involving.

and I spoke with a very good cellist who is also a very good engineer, and he said: why would I go for cello professionally? To pick up any gig that I do not like? With musicians and conductors that i find not good? To tolerate toxic relationship that are often common in big orchestras? I am no Casals to dictate what I want to play and with whom.

I think this is actually how music should live in society, reachable for everybody, giving pleasure and not struggle.


But pro career has its benefits also. The necessity to adjust, to do many different things definitely develop chops.
The only question is it worth it?

We cannot live life twice. My friend - a pro musician - sometimes says he has envies that I can do music how I want. But me also in turn.. sometimes I envy that he does not have to deep dive into other job and can focus only on music.
But we cannot exchange our experiences. Even if I suddenly switch to music carrier and he finds another job for money... we cannot cross our youth, the years when we matured, made families, brought up kids... those were the years when decisions were made easy and we gained some skills and knowledge without even realizing it, we integrated ourselves in life in the way we chose.

you cannot start it all over, even if you switch - you will go on. So we can never really fully understand each other.

[DestinyT]

Just an amateur hobbyist, but there's nothing like taking a chance live when you are exposed. It is even better with supportive company. Sharing this warts and all: Instagram

[Gilpy]

My definition of a “pro” isn’t tied to earning all of one’s income from music. I consider myself a professional musician because I have gigged steadily all my adult life, and have a professional skill set on guitar.
I get calls for gigs and studio work based on reputation and the ability to walk into a gig and hang with highly skilled musicians. So, I’m a pro, even though I now make more from Social Security.
I’ve never considered music a “hobby”. It’s much more than that to me.

[DestinyT]

My definition of a “pro” isn’t tied to earning all of one’s income from music. I consider myself a professional musician because I have gigged steadily all my adult life, and have a professional skill set on guitar.
I get calls for gigs and studio work based on reputation and the ability to walk into a gig and hang with highly skilled musicians. So, I’m a pro, even though I now make more from Social Security.
I’ve never considered music a “hobby”. It’s much more than that to me.

I fully relate to the idea that music is much more than a hobby, regardless of how one labels oneself. I tend to be conservative with labels, but I have nothing but respect for anyone who shows up prepared and committed.

[StormyMonday]

I play a couple gigs a month, mostly music other than jazz though we always put a few jazz tunes in there. I would call myself a hobbyist. But there are other definitions. The guys I've been lucky enough to play with the last 6 years all made their living in something other than music - mostly IT (as did I). However before that they did some extensive touring and shared the stage with some very major acts. Musically I can keep up with them without a problem, but what I see in them as "professional" is in their approach. How practices are structured, how we come to agreements on arrangements, the rigors put in as we setup, soundcheck, modify as needed, etc. They have solid sound engineering capabilities as well as music abilities. So to me these guys are professionals, regardless of what they do in their 9-5. I feel lucky to learn from them.