Why the need to gig?

[RLetson]

Ugh, tv and movies are useless, passive entertainments.

At the risk of feeding a trollish comment.

So: plays and sit-down concerts and ballets? Novels and poems? Sculptures and paintings? Exactly what would constitute "active" entertainment?

[AllanAllen]

Apparently George Benson is incapable of passing a jam session without sitting in haha


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I’ll bet he walks right on stage too.

[ruger9]

And … if you hate hip hop and rap that much, you might be surprised by the actual content of top 40 pop. When they opened up the ratings in the late eighties, the little classic rock dudes were shocked and dismayed to learn that hip hop and country were way more popular than rock.

I'm allowed to not like EVERYTHING, just MOST music, right?

[ruger9]

And this would be a place where they’re extremely different. Sure if you count off If I Were a Bell in New York, everyone will drop into the Miles Davis intro.

But if you’re going to play There Will Never Be Another You, or Out of Nowhere, there isn’t really any specific recording or any specific arrangement other than people’s understanding of how stuff like this works (give me a pedal out front, let’s do the last eight out front, trumpet cadenza up top, okay right on it). The changes aren’t set in stone, the melody is flexible, who plays what when isn’t decided yet, etc etc
.

Some jazz is. But having the same standards everyone learns out of the "fake book" sure sounds pretty cookie-cutter to me... sure, there's room for improvisation, but I wonder how many jazz trios actually do much of that? It's really no different than a pop singer changing the melody of a cover slightly to better fit their expression of the lyrics.

I would also say BLUES is very much what you describe. There are blues "forms" (such as 12-bar blues), that everyone can know. You call a key, and everyone can play the arrangement. At that point, the melody is flexible. But yes, the changes are pretty much "set in stone"... unless you get some players who REALLY know what they're doing, then that changes things.

I've always held issue with the attitude that jazz is "above" other music. Some jazz is "above" some other music, some jazz is "below" some other music. It really depends on the musician(s) playing it. I've heard some pretty crappy/lazy versions of jazz standards just as I've heard some crappy pop/rock bands. You certainly have to have an advanced knowledge of music theory (and the technique to play it) moreso than a pop/rock band. But then let's ask Julian Lage to play Eruption or Yngwie's Trilogy Suite Op.5 and see how he does. (BTW, I'm a big Lage fan)

I should also clarify I'm not talking strictly about "jam sessions"; I'm talking about musicians playing the same songs together. That could be at a jam or a gig. I think you may be implying that EVERY jazz gig IS a jam session, based on the "play the basic form of the song but then make it your own"? That's certainly valid... again, I wonder how often this happens... if a jazz pianist is playing pick-up gigs for money, and Autumn Leaves is called, I have to wonder how often he goes off on a creative improvisation as opposed to how often he just plays a standard version of it, it's just another gig, after all. (I don't know the answer to this question, I'm just posting it rhetorically). This would make them very much like any pop/rock musician playing a pick-up gig.

[pamosmusic]

Don’t recall saying you weren’t

[pamosmusic]

Are you a jazz musician? How often do you play Autumn Leaves exactly the same way?

[Stringswinger]

Are you a jazz musician? How often do you play Autumn Leaves exactly the same way?

I don't play anything the same way except for Classical pieces. I have been in rock bands and gone over the same song so many times that while the band's execution became perfect, I hated it. The beauty of jazz is that you can mix things up. Different tempos, different rhythms, different keys, different changes (tri-tone subs etc.) all make a tune fresh every time. Even Satin Doll or Misty or Autumn Leaves can be made new again.

And truth be told, I sometimes take liberties with a Classical piece. I am certain Bach would have approved.

[AllanAllen]

Some jazz is. But having the same standards everyone learns out of the "fake book" sure sounds pretty cookie-cutter to me... sure, there's room for improvisation, but I wonder how many jazz trios actually do much of that? It's really no different than a pop singer changing the melody of a cover slightly to better fit their expression of the lyrics.

I would also say BLUES is very much what you describe. There are blues "forms" (such as 12-bar blues), that everyone can know. You call a key, and everyone can play the arrangement. At that point, the melody is flexible. But yes, the changes are pretty much "set in stone"... unless you get some players who REALLY know what they're doing, then that changes things.

I've always held issue with the attitude that jazz is "above" other music. Some jazz is "above" some other music, some jazz is "below" some other music. It really depends on the musician(s) playing it. I've heard some pretty crappy/lazy versions of jazz standards just as I've heard some crappy pop/rock bands. You certainly have to have an advanced knowledge of music theory (and the technique to play it) moreso than a pop/rock band. But then let's ask Julian Lage to play Eruption or Yngwie's Trilogy Suite Op.5 and see how he does. (BTW, I'm a big Lage fan)

I should also clarify I'm not talking strictly about "jam sessions"; I'm talking about musicians playing the same songs together. That could be at a jam or a gig. I think you may be implying that EVERY jazz gig IS a jam session, based on the "play the basic form of the song but then make it your own"? That's certainly valid... again, I wonder how often this happens... if a jazz pianist is playing pick-up gigs for money, and Autumn Leaves is called, I have to wonder how often he goes off on a creative improvisation as opposed to how often he just plays a standard version of it, it's just another gig, after all. (I don't know the answer to this question, I'm just posting it rhetorically). This would make them very much like any pop/rock musician playing a pick-up gig.

It’s been my experience that the guys who play jazz as a reason to look down on other musicians and genres play the most outside solo possible over a 1 chord vamp and call it jazz. Can’t play shit, full of ego, boring music, very commercially successful though.

[Litterick]

Are you a jazz musician? How often do you play Autumn Leaves exactly the same way?

Nobody is obliged to answer these questions. You have the right to silence. You have the right to an attorney.

[pamosmusic]

Nobody is obliged to answer these questions. You have the right to silence. You have the right to an attorney.

Well … true … that “right to silence” part being the operative one.

And you’re forgetting the rest … “anything you do say can and will be used against you in a court of jazz dorks.”

[Peter C]

Anyway, why do we feel the need for an audience if we're not doing this because we need money?

Derek

Because 100 ears are better than 2

[pamosmusic]

It’s been my experience that the guys who play jazz as a reason to look down on other musicians and genres play the most outside solo possible over a 1 chord vamp and call it jazz. Can’t play shit, full of ego, boring music, very commercially successful though.

I think this guy is a myth.

Its the “commercially successful” part that gives it away

[kris]

Often, jazz musicians play for a small number of listeners.
Their quality of play does not change.
Respect for music and listener is always the same.
I would like the concert halls to be filled with listeners but it is only in my jazz imagination.

[Christian Miller]

At the risk of feeding a trollish comment.

So: plays and sit-down concerts and ballets? Novels and poems? Sculptures and paintings? Exactly what would constitute "active" entertainment?

Mario Karts

[AllanAllen]

Are you a jazz musician? How often do you play Autumn Leaves exactly the same way?

I would say, for the first year I did Autumn Leaves about 90% the same. Strict memorized comping with a BS solo, you know, just holding on. By doing a bunch of gigs I realized I was doing this and started trying to find new ways to navigate a tune, which led to me seeing what's a codified turnaround (G-7 Gb7 F-7 E7 in Autumn Leaves), what's a chord riff (Watermelon Man, Cantalope Island, Kille Joe), and what's an essential chord (D7#11 in Satin Doll).

[John A.]

I've always enjoyed performing -- the actual playing, interacting with other players, audience response, the process of developing material to perform (or the experience of knowing enough material and being comfortable enough with the other players not to have to do that), occasionally getting paid a decent amount ... I see music as fundamentally a social thing -- communication among players, communion with audience. Without performance it's incomplete. All that said, with the schlepping, hassle factor, and low pay, I'm glad to have another income that let's me pick my musical spots.

[fep]

It seems Ted Greene didn't gig. Certainly he could have if he wanted, if he liked gigging.

[John A.]

Regarding jam sessions (talking here about open jams at venues, not living room sessions with friends that are not quote rehearsals) ...

I'm a regular at one session, and an occasional participant at a couple of others that are very enjoyable. The players are mostly very good (a mix of full-time pros and solid amateurs/part-timers, with some less experienced players), the vibe is friendly overall and patient with the newbs. Everyone is guaranteed two tunes, and usually gets more (unless it's unusually crowded). I have met several other players I've wound up doing stuff with through these sessions, and made some friendships. Some of the more serious pros I know kind of sneer at these session because they skew too amateur for their tastes. Cool, more tunes for me.

I have occasionally attended some of the more cattle-call like sessions were you're lucky to get up at all and have to listen to endless streams of Brecker wannabes blowing endless choruses while you wait. I know people who do these sessions regularly, and they are definitely a path to meeting very high level players, but no thanks.

In both of those cases, sucks is in the eye of the beholder. For me, the second type definitely sucks, and no amount of "be the change" would make it suck less for me.

[kris]

It seems Ted Greene didn't gig. Certainly he could have if he wanted, if he liked gigging.

I don't know the life of Ted Greene. I know he loved Telecaster and recorded the great 'Solo' album.
He also wrote several great guitar books.I have several of them.

[John A.]

It seems Ted Greene didn't gig. Certainly he could have if he wanted, if he liked gigging.

From what I've read, he did gig pretty regularly, often accompanying singers locally. There were also a lot of performances and recitals at GIT. But he didn't travel and didn't have a performing career anywhere near commensurate with this abilities. That seems to have been by choice.

[AllanAllen]

Didn't record his gigs =/= didn't gig.

[pamosmusic]

@John … what session are you going to?

I had the same experience in New York. Went to the smalls one and it was very cool but just A LOT (and also way too late for someone with a day job), but I would go to the Tea Lounge with John McNeil before that one closed. That one was awesome — welcoming and supportive but also they’d rough you up a little bit if you weren’t hacking it

[Christian Miller]

Idk. Here is Ted Greene playing a gig

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[Mick-7]

Idk. Here is Ted Greene playing a gig

Probably gave up gigging after he heard that recording.

[John A.]

@John … what session are you going to?

I had the same experience in New York. Went to the smalls one and it was very cool but just A LOT (and also way too late for someone with a day job), but I would go to the Tea Lounge with John McNeil before that one closed. That one was awesome — welcoming and supportive but also they’d rough you up a little bit if you weren’t hacking it

Weekly Jam at Kismat Indian Restaurant/Bar in Washington Heights (WaHi Wednesday Jazz Jam). I live a block away, so I go pretty much every week. There's one in Riverdale on Sundays I go to fairly often, as well. A lot of overlap in people between the two.