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I’ve worked scales into my guitar routine, but now I’ve hit a bit of a wall. I know every mode of the natural major scale, harmonic minor, and melodic minor. I have also learned the blues scale, the bebop scale, the whole tone scale, and both diminished scales. Where does a jazz guitarist go next?
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10-22-2017 11:30 PM
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Hi, welcome to the forum!
What you need are arpeggios:
Introduction to Guitar Arpeggios For Beginners (Tabs, Charts & PDF)
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Learn a lot of tunes. If you're interested in bebop, learn heads by Bud Powell, Charlie Parker, Thelonius Monk, etc. try playing them by ear in other keys. PS, you'll find that pure scales and modes that you are practicing don't show up that much in those types of tunes, although they are still a great foundation. The bebop stuff is more chromatic...
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Learn tunes
Originally Posted by Nova_Comedy
Learn lines by ear from solos
Play chord tones through progressions
Start your rhythmic education
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Forget Tunes. You might as well go all out. Learn Harmonic Major, Double Harmonic scale also, all 12 keys, 12 positions, all string set combinations. Don't forget the Pentatonics. If you want to get your brain fried then I suggest heading into uncharted territory such as
Lydian Augmented b2
Major b2, #5 (Pretty Interesting one)
Major X4, X5, #6 (One of my favorites)
Altered bb3, bb4, bbb5, bbb6, bb7
And the dastardly Major b2 scale.
All 12 keys, all Positions, and without even looking.
Remember.. all of these each that I have listed have seven modes, so you have to take account of that as well.
... have fun! (Runs to the hills)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
and learn it's all about tunes and chords.
Chords tell you what scale, you use scales to imply the chords and alternate chords, melodies imply chords. It's all about melodies and chords.
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Originally Posted by jazznylon
That's right, jazz is about the numbers. Who wants to listen to grandpa music?
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Well, me for one. Originally Posted by christianm77
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I enjoy all sorts of irony, but I don't understand doing this to a post from someone who's barely ever posted on the forum. Confusing at the very least. If you're in on the joke, that's cool. II if you're left out of inside joke , what's the point? Originally Posted by jazznylon
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Nova_Comedy...I think you got the important ones down.
It'd be helpful to know what else you're practicing.
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Uh... good point! Sorry Nova_Comedy, ignore my post. It was a joke in bad taste. Was having my Florida Man moment.. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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I thought that too ...but his name is Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Nova_ Comedy - was he kidding in the first place ?
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Ellington? mingus? Parker? That's not jazz! Originally Posted by guido5
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Sorry. Probably not a big deal. Sometimes the joke is lost cross-culturally etc, or even with just being new, not knowing if it's good-natured fun or making fun at another's expense etc. I understand questions get asked repeatedly and become mundane. Maybe we try to keep it interesting. I probably should have simply posted "he's joking by the way " or similar. no worries. Originally Posted by jazznylon
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In Joe Pass' Jazz Lines video, he talks about only using major, minor, and dominant, then altering them as needed. Scales are a template. The music comes from our attentive listening. My preference is to put the focus on melodic creativity, rather than rote learning of scales. For me, locking in small phrases is much more valuable than scales.
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Can this question be answered without knowing more about what you're doing with chords, arps, tunes, rhythm etc? Originally Posted by Nova_Comedy
Or perhaps you're just asking if a well rounded, knowledgeable player would typically know some other scales. If that's the case, I might note that I'm aware of at least one great player who uses harmonic major, but I couldn't tell you how or why, exactly.
In my own playing I do find myself having to think about major scale and associated modes, melodic minor with a few modes, diminished and WT. Mostly because I play in situations where I may have to solo on a tune I've never heard, reading weird changes. So, some knowledge of scales is helpful. But, I suspect my time would be much better spent working on applications of the scales I already know rather than learning new scales.
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I'm wondering how well you know all of these scales. What chords to they work with? The ability to play any note of a scale anywhere on your instrument randomly? If you're learning these scales and only playing them up and down you've only just begun.
If you have done all of this and just want more scales to learn, Alan Holdsworth has a few 8 tone scales you might find interesting. You can add one extra note to pretty much any scale and have a different scale. Also there's the Barry Harris 7th diminished scale.
Have you found places in songs to use each mode of the melodic minor and harmonic minor scales? If you have, you're more advanced than I am!
How about quartal harmony in these scale/modes?
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Allan Holdsworths 8 note scales are pretty much the same as Barry Harris’s
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Put these basics into a practice routine.... Originally Posted by Nova_Comedy
Each degree of all scales has a series of basic relationships.
Take Gmaj scale... Using that Gmaj as the Reference. And on Guitar using the lowest or 6th string as your fretboard Reference. Create a practice schedule... all designed with Gmaj as you tonal reference...
Example... I would play Gmaj scales, two octaves starting on each degree, moving up the neck, all with "G" as tonal Reference. Then arpeggios, chords etc...
Then A-7, B-7, Cmaj7, D7, E-7, F#-7b5, These are all relative relationship.
Then maybe next time use "G" for starting point. Gmaj. Ionian, Gmin Dorian, Gmin Phrygian etc...
These would be Parallel relationships.
These are a starting point, I've added a few PDf's of examples. This process should be done with all your scales, all degrees, for example, I posted some of Gmaj material. next you would do Amin. Dorian as Reference. Or you could keep G as reference and make Gmin Dorian. I believe I use to do both.
Then... Melodic min. then Harmonic Min. ...Harmonic Maj. has become much more common in the last 10 years, but only recently modally. Generally only functionally.... more like embellishments of existing.
Here's a start...
1) Gma7 chord, root 6 version
2) Gmaj.scale, two octaves in 2nd position, starting on 6th string
3) then play the same scale starting on each scale degree with starting point on 6th string. So your moving up the neck playing, again two octaves of the Gmaj scale starting on each scale degree, (GABCDEF#G) with starting point on the 6th string. What you probable call or think of as the modes. But think of all 7 degrees of the Gmaj scale with relationship to "G". So now you can play and are able to have a fingering system to play Gmaj scale anywhere on the fretboard. The guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern.
4)Gmaj complete arpeggio, same position as the Gmaj scale and again 2 octaves.
5)Gmaj7 arpeggios... starting on each degree moving up the neck.
6)Gmaj triad arpeggios... same thing
7)Gmaj9 arpeggios same thing. (this one could be latter, it will help when becoming aware of functional relationships between chords)
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That sounds like a simplification system to avoid management of hyper complexity. That makes a lot of sense. Originally Posted by paulcw16
On the other hand Joe also made the point that he knew ALL of his scales when he was 14. So in his case it was strong foundations followed by condensing/simplification.
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Those three functions will do you for straight ahead. Probably when Joe was coming up the m7b5 chord was still considered an inverted minor.
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Just adding to Reg's excellent post, I found a useful way to organise and hear parallel major modes was in order of brightest to darkest. Taking the 6th string 'G' as a reference point, proceed in the following manner: G lydian, ionian, mixolydian, dorian, aeolian, phrygian, locrian. As you might expect, this arrangement has its own internal logic. The modes are arranged in a cycle of descending 4ths - Mode 4, 1, 5, 2, 6, 3, 7:
The important point Reg makes is that scales, arpeggios and modes should be visualised and practiced both across and up the fretboard. For instance, if you only play modes in derivative fashion, e.g. G ionian, A dorian, B phrygian etc. all played from 2nd position, it's easy for the ears and mind to switch off, turning it into a routine digital exercise.
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monday morning post failure
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Hi reg. thanks for the post. lots to work on for me here and chimes in well with my current work understanding of the fretboard.
With this specific excercise " 5)Gmaj7 arpeggios... starting on each degree moving up the neck."
Do you mean Gmaj7 starting on each degree as in playing.
Gmaj7
Bmin7
D7
etc
OR
Gmajor 1st degree - g- b - d - F#-g
Gmajor 3rd degree - b- d- F# - g -b
Gmajor 5th degree - d- f#-g - b - d
etc?
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