naming chords?

[Ukena]

[...] I don't like triangles or any other symbol that is either difficult or impossible to type on a computer without specialized software. [...]

I realize that this isn't going to affect how you feel about symbols in chord names, but the delta (triangle) is definitely easy, on a Mac, anyway. Option-j will yield that triangle. And for a diminished chord, option-shift-8 will yield the degree sign.

Neither of which is intuitive, but then, using a computer at all isn't exactly intuitive; but keyboard shortcuts are learned pretty easily if they are used often enough. But like complicated software (for instance, music engraving software like Finale or Musescore), if one doesn't use them for a while, one has to learn them all over again.

[ragman1]

Making a triangle isn't difficult on Windows either:

?

The problem is the forum's font won't allow it. It comes out as a question mark. As you can see :-)

[Mick-7]

The circumflex symbol is probably close enough: ^ (^7)

[pauln]

Was just reviewing my own sense of chord names and went to authoritative sources to check something... anyone ever notice that Berklee Press and Wikipedia don't agree on the quality of the seventh in "aug7"?

Berklee's aug7 is 1 3 #5 7
(natural seven, their example is C E G# B)

Wikipedia's aug7 is 1 3 #5 b7
(minor seven, like an altered dominant)

Why Lead Sheets? | Berklee

Augmented seventh chord - Wikipedia

Doesn't really matter as an ear player, but I'm surprised this hasn't been noticed and corrected.

In other news, it appears that a fundamental source of confusion with naming chords and constructing their chord symbols stems from the convention that a chord's default scale degree structure is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 as if mapped from the fifth mode of the major scale that has its tonic on the chord's root, but the convention for this is not explicitly marked... the chord symbols use a bare 7 to indicate a b7.

[ragman1]

Berklee's aug7 is 1 3 #5 7
(natural seven, their example is C E G# B)

They've got both those wrong. Mind you, the maj7#5 and maj7#9 chords exist too but aren't on the list.



And it looks like the list was made before b13 was a preferred term. Also, I hadn't seen Cdim(maj7) before - C Eb Gb B. These days I think that would be a B/C.

Apparently the article was published in their alumni magazine, summer 2018.

[pamosmusic]

They've got both those wrong. Mind you, the maj7#5 and maj7#9 chords exist too but aren't on the list.



And it looks like the list was made before b13 was a preferred term. Also, I hadn't seen Cdim(maj7) before - C Eb Gb B. These days I think that would be a B/C.

Apparently the article was published in their alumni magazine, summer 2018.

Definitely not how this b5 and augmented chord symbols would be understood now. Flat sevens on both for sure.

EDIT: Wait … 2018? Yeah only explanation for that is a typo. Otherwise there would’ve been a lot of C#s in m3-4 of A Train over the last many years.

[Reg]

Yea... here is page from Clinton Roemers... The Art Of Music Copying, still a standard along with the little red book...
"Standardized Chord Symbol Notation" by Roemer... (was a copyist in LA) and Carl Brandt, composer, conductor, arranger etc... also in LA area... before Finale etc...

The red book was used by most publishers, music programs and keyboards... there are more...but the organizational concepts are still good...

[Christian Miller]

My father plays "praise" music (insert Homer Simpson shudder here) in his Sunday morning worship band, and his charts are riddled with add9 and sus2 chords, but both are always notated the same. G2, C2, etc. I had to look it up as it's a bit confusing to me, and I guess that's a thing in contemporary worship music.

"And do so through all the Strymon pedals."

I play a radio game on road trips. You flip through the channels, naming a song as quickly as possible. Not bad at it, but I can determine the praise music genre within a second without fail. Huge reverb, splashy drums, Taylor acoustics....But there's something else I can't put my finger on that makes it instantly identifiable to my ear. Idk, maybe it's the aura of acute positivity, which I'll kindly have none of thank you very much.

Someone had a theory that suburban mega churches basically have no acoustic, so you have to put reverb on everything to make it sound churchy.

I wouldn’t know. I’ve only ever performed in cavernous Anglican edifices.

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[mr. beaumont]

Someone had a theory that suburban mega churches basically have no acoustic, so you have to put reverb on everything to make it sound churchy.

I wouldn’t know. I’ve only ever performed in cavernous Anglican edifices.

The best one was singing Elgar in St Paul’s Cathedral. Doesn’t work


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Interesting...

The suburban mega churches around here are basically stadiums...I can't speak to their acoustics, but I imagine they'd be echoey but boomy and generally poorly controlled.

I grew up Catholic, the older Catholic churches in Chicago are basically echo chambers...but no guitars allowed. Just nice loud pipe organs.

[pamosmusic]

Interesting...

The suburban mega churches around here are basically stadiums...I can't speak to their acoustics, but I imagine they'd be echoey but boomy and generally poorly controlled.

I grew up Catholic, the older Catholic churches in Chicago are basically echo chambers...but no guitars allowed. Just nice loud pipe organs.

Not to mention that they’re extremely expensive and probably built with performance in mind. Probably about as much attention to acoustics as a concert venue.

[pauln]

If the scale degree reference used for default chord symbol description (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) is the fifth mode of major (Mixolydian), then the degree structure chord naming convention with respect to the root of the chord is the fourth mode of Mixolydian (but what scale is this called?).

How many think of major as their construction reference, taking into account that the b7 is labeled as 7?
How many think of the fourth mode of Mixo as their constructive reference?

[wolflen]

If the scale degree reference used for default chord symbol description (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) is the fifth mode of major (Mixolydian), then the degree structure chord naming convention with respect to the root of the chord is the fourth mode of Mixolydian (but what scale is this called?).

How many think of major as their construction reference, taking into account that the b7 is labeled as 7?
How many think of the fourth mode of Mixo as their constructive reference?

Your question is a bit confusing.

the major scale is Ionion--it will be a different mode degree ( first mode-second mode-etc) within each starting degree of the scale - but it will
still be called the Ionion mode..so the fourth mode of the Mixolydian mode is the Ionian mode

My question to you is..why are you asking this?

[Christian Miller]

Definitely not how this b5 and augmented chord symbols would be understood now. Flat sevens on both for sure.

EDIT: Wait … 2018? Yeah only explanation for that is a typo. Otherwise there would’ve been a lot of C#s in m3-4 of A Train over the last many years.

It’s a typo for sure


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[Christian Miller]

Not to mention that they’re extremely expensive and probably built with performance in mind. Probably about as much attention to acoustics as a concert venue.

That depends…. Some churches are better than others.


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[pamosmusic]

That depends…. Some churches are better than others.


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Buddy you’re in the UK.

Now let me tell you about the “praise and worship” budget of an evangelical megachurch in the good ole U S of A.

[pauln]

Your question is a bit confusing.

the major scale is Ionion--it will be a different mode degree ( first mode-second mode-etc) within each starting degree of the scale - but it will
still be called the Ionion mode..so the fourth mode of the Mixolydian mode is the Ionian mode

My question to you is..why are you asking this?

Maybe to clear the confusion?

Chord naming default degree qualities are 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Mixo is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 and Major is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (not b7)
The actual chord naming default scale degrees are Mixo

The scale degrees' default qualities for naming chords correspond to those of Mixolydian, but the actual labeling of the naming system corresponds to Major ( yes, Ionian labeling but not sounding, (labeled as "7" but sounding b7).

We don't use the major scale structure with its tonic set to the root of the chord as a reference scale for the chord naming system because it sets b7 as the default label. Rather, we use the parallel Mixolydian structure (to map to the labels) , with its tonic set to the root of the chord.

[Mick-7]

I hadn't seen Cdim(maj7) before - C Eb Gb B. These days I think that would be a B/C.

Thing is, B/C may be interpreted as a slash chord, B triad over a C triad, C-E-G-B-D#-F#, which is a major rather than a dim. or minor sound. Of course we'd have to abbreviate it on the guitar.

[emanresu]

When a system got explained, there is a mixture of tradition, common sense and some added nuance.

Instead, what if a new system was proposed that addressed every single problem a written chord may ever have?
And then just.. see what happens?

What would you suggest?

[Mick-7]

When a system got explained, there is a mixture of tradition, common sense and some added nuance.

Instead, what if a new system was proposed that addressed every single problem a written chord may ever have?
And then just.. see what happens?

What would you suggest?

I think we already have a sensible notation system, as Reg pointed out earlier, it's just that some people refuse to adhere to it. We may have to extend it for some newer slash and altered type chords, but that shouldn't be difficult.

For example, in the case of triads, B/C = slash chord, B triad over C triad. If it's an extended chord, B7, B6 or whatever, write say, B7b9/C for a B7b9 with the b9th (C) in the bass.

[emanresu]

I think we already have a sensible notation system, as Reg pointed out earlier, it's just that some people refuse to adhere to it.

There is that good system but with pitfalls.

[pauln]

When a system got explained, there is a mixture of tradition, common sense and some added nuance.

Instead, what if a new system was proposed that addressed every single problem a written chord may ever have?
And then just.. see what happens?

What would you suggest?

I have never liked the idea of thinking, hearing, or using something one is not intending to play in order to execute something one does want to play.

The chord naming reference looks like the major scale - it uses the major scale labels, but the "7"=b7 means it is really mapped to the parallel Mixo degree structure. What was already once removed is revealed to be twice removed.

Maybe a new system is a good problem for AI to resolve within the current system? Chord notation is a language and AI are really good at that...

[Christian Miller]

Buddy you’re in the UK.

Now let me tell you about the “praise and worship” budget of an evangelical megachurch in the good ole U S of A.

Every man has his price


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[Christian Miller]

(Also the acoustic at St Paul’s cathedral is absolutely awful)


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[StoneWaller]

Buddy you’re in the UK.

Now let me tell you about the “praise and worship” budget of an evangelical megachurch in the good ole U S of A.

No joke. The smaller evangelical churches are in places like renovated former Circuit City and Dollor General stores, but the real deal mega churches in the US have jumbotron screens, boutique concession stands, and gift shops.

And I think the crazy reverb helps establish an ethereal, trancy, state of worship. Guitarist hits the dimed Big Sky and the audience arms collectively reach to heaven with eyes closed and tears streaming. Not my thing, but I've seen it, and it's a real scene man. Like a Dead show without the drugs.