Enharmonics

[nbevan3]

From a purely guitar perspective - with limited notes available for chords - can anyone explain to me why some chords are described as flat 5 and others are sharp 11?
Can anyone describe a chord voicing with a natural 5 and sharp 11 that does not sound discordant?
Many thanks

[mr. beaumont]

Since chords are derived from scales, the #11/b5 designation exists so that each letter of the musical alphabet is expressed only once in the chord scale.

so a chord with a b5 can theoretically have a perfect 4th, a chord with a #11 can have a perfect 5th. We're probably not putting them both in the chord, but those notes can be used when improvising over the chord...probably.

Ears uber alles, if it sounds good, it is good, and if it doesn't adjust appropriately.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah the #11 with a natural fifth is pretty common –– most chords marked 7#11 will sound pretty good with the fifth as long as it's an octave lower.

b5 with an 11th is weird.

But yeah ... on guitar in particular we omit those extras mostly because we can only really grab so many notes.

[Tal_175]

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Is a common major7 voicing with both the 5th and #4. In this example it's Cmaj7#4. You bar the first finger slightly at an angle to get the 3rd and 2nd fret for the bottom and top voice.

If you play it with and without the 5th (mute the voice on the D string in this case), you'll see that the addition of the 5th isn't a show stopper. In fact, it actually sounds better with the 5th.

If this sounds weird to you, play a ii-V-I in G first (Amin-D7-Gmaj7), get your ears into the key of G and then play it as the lydian chord of the key. Of course you can also play it as the I chord especially when a tune ends on the one chord.

[wolflen]

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5
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5
3
x

Is a common major7 voicing both with 5th and #4. In the example voicing it's Cmaj7. You bar the first finger slightly at an angle to get the 3rd and 2nd fret for the bottom and top voice.
You can play it with and without the 5th (mute the voice on the D string in this case). You'll see the addition of the 5th isn't a show stopper. In fact, it actually sounds better with the 5th.

If this sounds weird to you, play a ii-V-I to G first (Amin-D7-Gmaj7), get your ears into the key of G and then play it as the lydian chord of the key. Of course you can also play it as the I chord especially when a tune ends on the one chord.

CM7#11 with the 5th ..nice chord ! it does take a bit of practice but worth the effort..

the G lydian G F# B C#..I let the high E string ring after the chord..alot of ideas for chord melody playing open strings after a chord

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

2
5
4
5
3
x

Is a common major7 voicing with both the 5th and #4. In the example voicing it's Cmaj7. You bar the first finger slightly at an angle to get the 3rd and 2nd fret for the bottom and top voice.

If you play it with and without the 5th (mute the voice on the D string in this case), you'll see that the addition of the 5th isn't a show stopper. In fact, it actually sounds better with the 5th.

If this sounds weird to you, play a ii-V-I to G first (Amin-D7-Gmaj7), get your ears into the key of G and then play it as the lydian chord of the key. Of course you can also play it as the I chord especially when a tune ends on the one chord.

For x35452, I also fret the x3545x normally then reach around "the other way" and fret the F# with the side of my thumb. So wrong!

[Tal_175]

For x35452, I also fret the x3545x normally then reach around "the other way" and fret the F# with the side of my thumb. So wrong!

That's like treating fretboard like a keyboard, lol. Interesting. But what supports the fretboard? Do you press it against your body?

[pauln]

This perspective (anti-enharmonic) is just based on the idea that a single pitch within the domain of a chord should not take two scale degree numerals but be determined as one or the other based on within which octave role it is sounded. I am not certain what the canonical music theory says about that, but I would be surprised if it wasn't consistent with this perspective. Maybe someone knows...?

A written chord type defines the chord tones, extensions, and alterations with respect to scale degrees, and these degrees span two octaves. Distinguishing these octaves is not always consistent or clear because there is a third octave role on the guitar.

If I call these octaves the chord tone octave and the extension octave you can see some confusion with guitar chords right away - sometimes the upper octave is the extension octave over a chord tone octave, but other times the upper octave may be the chord tone octave over a bass octave. This confusion is more likely with someone playing alone or as the lone accompaniment to a singer or solo instrument, where they may provide more lush chords that fill in some bass (chords with bass octaves), not so much an issue with unextended shell chords where you know you're completely within the chord tone octave, or with rootless extended chords where you know you're in the extension octave (with maybe just the seventh on the bottom from the chord tone octave).

So lot of guitar chords span two octaves but the lower octave may not be the chord tone octave but rather the bass octave, often just sounding the one and three or the one and five (filling in somewhat for the missing bass player). The confusion can arise for example if the chord is actually a bass octave with a chord tone octave over it and you call the degree one step up from the center tonic a ninth because it is in the octave over the bass octave, but if the chord is actually a chord tone octave with an extension octave over it you would call that same note a second... same for calling something a sixth or a thirteenth, etc.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That's like treating fretboard like a keyboard, lol. Interesting. But what supports the fretboard? Do you press it against your body?

Light touch.

[starjasmine]

A functional-harmony perspective might name the note according to how it resolves: #11 resolves up, b5 resolves down.

Of course this won't apply in all situations. Case in point: jazz uses a lot of non-functional harmony and a "tones as colors" approach.

[Mick-7]

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And there are many C Lydian voicings with open strings - more than any other chord if you count Am7 & Em7 voicings.


A couple of duplicates there but I can't edit the image....

[Tal_175]

And there are many C Lydian voicings with open strings - more than any other chord if you count Am7 & Em7 voicings.


A couple of duplicates there but I can't edit the image....

The OP's question is voicings of #11's with the 5th. I gave one example.
There are others but the chord charts you posted seem to omit the 5th. Also I don't see any open strings in the charts.

[Mick-7]

Unfortunately I can't notate open strings with the Chord Writer app I have, but the top strings are open, so all the chords I posted, except for two, contain the 5th of the chord: the open G string.

The two chords with no 5th (G) in them are:
(1) the CM7#11 at the 7th fret, but you could replace the C in the bass with G (10th fret of A string)
(2) the CM7#11 at the 10th fret (B at 12th fret, open E string), you can get a G in it too if want it.

Doubled #11 is a cool sound: x-3-4-0-0-2 (or open E in the bass)

[Mick-7]

Of course we have other enharmonic notes too - b3rd/#9th, #5/b13th. Think of all the jazz guitar chord books that enharmonics sold!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

And there are many C Lydian voicings with open strings - more than any other chord if you count Am7 & Em7 voicings.


A couple of duplicates there but I can't edit the image....

The Interweb notation for grips is durn handy. Those are:

x24030
x34000
8x9970
x.10.10.11.0.0
etc...
I had to guess about open versus not played strings.

[Mick-7]

I had to guess about open versus not played strings.

You could play the bottom open E string in many of those chords since it's the 3rd of the chord...

I made an arrangement of Blue in Green that is mostly open string chords, see the attached.

[ragman1]

You could play the bottom open E string in many of those chords since it's the 3rd of the chord...

I made an arrangement of Blue in Green that is mostly open string chords, see the attached.

I like Blue In Green. Can we hear you play it?

[pauln]

I like Blue In Green.

Me too; I first heard it long ago on a McLaughlin record and thought he wrote it.
He inverted the form, so it always sounded to me as if Miles starts in the middle.
He used some open strings...

[Mick-7]

I like Blue In Green. Can we hear you play it?

I'm attempting to get my old Zoom 4 track recorder operating but I realized I'll need a new smart card and smart card reader too for it.... anyway, the tab I posted is pretty much what I play.

[Mick-7]

Me too; I first heard it long ago on a McLaughlin record and thought he wrote it. He inverted the form, so it always sounded to me as if Miles starts in the middle. He used some open strings...

I forgot that John covered Blue in Green on that album. In my opinion, that's his best album - side 1 anyway, side 2 is a long raga like piece.

I transcribed a tune off that record, I'll post a copy of it, I'll have to scan it with my phone 'cause my printer died. I've been technology challenged of late.... who am I kidding, I am always technology challenged!


Here is my lead sheet for Hearts and Flowers from John McLaughlin's album, My Goals Beyond. (I see that I wrote the 2nd ending from bar 4 on [G7#11], an octave too high.)

The final "lovely" chord he plays is (drop D tuning): 0-3-3-5-5-4






Here it is on YouTube:

[pauln]

I'm attempting to get my old Zoom 4 track recorder operating but I realized I'll need a new smart card and smart card reader too for it.... anyway, the tab I posted is pretty much what I play.

You may use the AI app that isolates the instruments and voices from audio files ... even if the original was a single track or mis-mixed multi-tracks.

Vocal Remover & Instrumental AI Splitter | LALAL.AI

My trio has been recording with a single good overhead mic, then using the AI app to isolate instruments for mixing.