Help, this theory question is blowing my mind

[ragman1]

I'm with you on the "jazz minor." Start a petition?

Wiki got there first. Trouble is, it's wrong. They think only the ascending form of the scale is used. We'll have to write in.

Jazz minor scale - Wikipedia

[Christian Miller]

It’s not the rules and rigid discipline. Obviously jazz mixes and matches things in ways that would make it normal to see a scale up one way and down the other. The difference would be that jazzers use melodic minor for its harmony. If I say I’m playing major scale stuff, it doesn’t mean I’m using just major scales. Maybe more non diatonic notes than diatonic. It just means I’m playing major scale harmony. Same for melodic minor. So it is a categorically different thing in jazz — used for a different purpose.

Christian will be along to correct me on gallant use of the melodic minor shortly or some sh**, but broad strokes.

(though I have to agree with Christian on how obnoxious it is to have to say melodic minor harmony)

I think that’s how I look at it.

In common practice music scale notes are connecting tissue between chord tones. They are used this way in jazz too (in fact I quoted Sco talking about it only yesterday)

but that’s not all that goes down, and we have this concept of scales being generated by and connected to extended chords and so on. Which of course is where the Mel- ahem jazz minor - really enters the picture. Chord/scale theory. CST to me is pretty much a jazz concept.

(I’m sure it’s used a bit in c20 concert music. I think there’s some stuff in that 20th century harmony book that I should reread at some point.)

In my opinion these two things are completely separate things.

These things are above all defined by process.

The jazz process by and large is create music by doing stuff with an existing song structure or chord progression. In classical music it’s generally done to compose (or improvise) a structure as you go with melody, chords, counterpoint together (chaconne/ground bass is more like a chord progression but not exactly the same thing.)

So as a result a lot of jazz stuff is about putting scales on chords in a way that I don’t think really occurs to classical musicians. It comes from a need to improvise on tunes really, I would say.


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[voyage]

Sorry, I'm trying to learn to play jazz. I'm pretty weak on theory.

So in Blue Bossa, the first chord is Cm7 then Fm7. I should play Aeolian (the sixth mode of Eb and the first mode of Cm) over Cm7 and the fourth, Dorian mode of Cm over the Fm7 right?

I created a solo using notes from Cm. Each bar started with a C. It didn't seem to fit the harmony. Then I thought it would work better over the Fm if I replaced notes I took from Aolean with notes from the F Dorian mode (my mistake saying Phrygian). So I should replace C with F, F with B-flat, and so on, am I more on the right track now?

[pamosmusic]

Sorry, I'm trying to learn to play jazz. I'm pretty weak on theory.

So in Blue Bossa, the first chord is Cm7 then Fm7. I should play Aeolian (the sixth mode of Eb and the first mode of Cm) over Cm7 and the fourth, Dorian mode of Cm over the Fm7 right?

I created a solo using notes from Cm. Each bar started with a C. It didn't seem to fit the harmony. Then I thought it would work better over the Fm if I replaced notes I took from Aolean with notes from the F Dorian mode (my mistake saying Phrygian). So I should replace C with F, F with B-flat, and so on, am I more on the right track now?

Ahhhhhhhhhhhh

F Dorian and C Aeolian contain the same notes. Wherever you read to do that over the tune (or any other) go ahead and close the tab.

A mode also can start on any note, it’s about where the center of gravity in the melody is, not where you start. Take Happy Birthday — it starts on the 5 of the major scale, but it’s not in Mixolydian. In jazz, the center of gravity is often where the bass note is. So if you’re playing notes from Eb major but the bass player is playing C, it sounds like Aeolian. Keep playing the same notes as the bass player switches to F, and you sound Dorian.

So what’s the point of switching modes if you’re just playing an Eb major scale over both chords? Great question; there is none. Switching modes accomplishes nothing in this context. Jazz musicians don’t think of chord changes this way. Try learning to arpeggiate the chord changes —- over Cm, can you just use the notes from Cm? How about over Fm, can you just use the notes from Fm? And so on. Play around with rhythm.

Jazz improvisations are usually harmonically specific, which means they’re thinking of where the chord changes are going. This can mean a lot of things, but when you’re starting out, it means outlining the chords.

[Jimmy Smith]

You want to know and be able to use both. The diatonic notes to the key center; and what scales you can use over a chord that would fit the chord and context, but would contain outside notes from the key center. So to stay diatonic, you would play F dorian over the F-7 4 chord. If you wanted to use scales with outside notes, you could play F aeolian, F melodic minor, F blues etc..

[rpjazzguitar]

Sorry, I'm trying to learn to play jazz. I'm pretty weak on theory.

So in Blue Bossa, the first chord is Cm7 then Fm7. I should play Aeolian (the sixth mode of Eb and the first mode of Cm) over Cm7 and the fourth, Dorian mode of Cm over the Fm7 right?

I created a solo using notes from Cm. Each bar started with a C. It didn't seem to fit the harmony. Then I thought it would work better over the Fm if I replaced notes I took from Aolean with notes from the F Dorian mode (my mistake saying Phrygian). So I should replace C with F, F with B-flat, and so on, am I more on the right track now?

I'd suggest getting a backing track. IRealPro is very useful. Then try it every which way and figure out which notes you like.

As far as theory goes, the tune starts in Cm. Like a minor blues, it goes to the IV chord, Fm.

The tonic minor (that Cm, which is where the tune "wants" to resolve) can be played in various ways. So, at the risk of overwhelming you with my particular brand of "theory" ... Cm can be thought of as C D Eb F G (all in the melody and all common to the various minor scales not counting more exotic ones) then 1) either Ab or A, and 2) either Bb or B. Or those four notes in any combination. So you can try them all and see what you like. Each combination, btw, has a different name: Aeolian, harmonic, melodic and Dorian. But, the important thing is to figure out, by ear, which notes you like over each chord.

When you get to the Fm, the blues nature of the tune means that some people will stay on Cm (aeolian) and make it sound good. For Fm, the Ab is the b3 which is important to the sound. So, you get F G Ab Bb C and then you make the same sort of choices of the 6th and 7th.

Your choices will probably turn out to be pretty standard, but I'd strongly recommend you figure them out by ear and fill in the theory later. If you google "scale finder" you'll find a tool that will allow you to type in the notes and it will give you the scale name. Then you can google that, dive into the theory and hope for the best <g>.

[wolflen]

Sorry, I'm trying to learn to play jazz. I'm pretty weak on theory.

So in Blue Bossa, the first chord is Cm7 then Fm7. I should play Aeolian (the sixth mode of Eb and the first mode of Cm) over Cm7 and the fourth, Dorian mode of Cm over the Fm7 right?

I created a solo using notes from Cm. Each bar started with a C. It didn't seem to fit the harmony. Then I thought it would work better over the Fm if I replaced notes I took from Aolean with notes from the F Dorian mode (my mistake saying Phrygian). So I should replace C with F, F with B-flat, and so on, am I more on the right track now?

ok..the scale/mode thing can be very confusing when your just learning jazz basics.

Strong suggestion:..dont worry about modes for now..
Learn the chords in the major scale and how they work together..this is known as Diatonic Harmony..it will help you alot.

Blue Bossa is a fairly easy tune. Learn the melody. Be able to play it in several positions on the fretboard.
Break it apart..study what melody notes work over what chord in the tune.

Also--Learn the chords--and their inversions- in different positions as well-yeah this will take some work-start with basic triads

Play with those notes--if you can record a backing track of just one chord at a time and use the melody notes to create some solo lines.

add a note before and after each melody note..make the melody note the target of a lick..learn the arpeggios of each chord and find some
connecting notes between chords..and reinstate the melody...play it forward and backward

all this will take time and alot of practice..if there was another way to learn this stuff I would like to know it.

there are many great teachers and players and they all have found 'their own" method..
but after a while..when you learn this stuff..and really know it..basically they are all saying the same thing

practice ,, hope this helps

[garybaldy]

I'd suggest getting a backing track. IRealPro is very useful. Then try it every which way and figure out which notes you like.

As far as theory goes, the tune starts in Cm. Like a minor blues, it goes to the IV chord, Fm.

The tonic minor (that Cm, which is where the tune "wants" to resolve) can be played in various ways. So, at the risk of overwhelming you with my particular brand of "theory" ... Cm can be thought of as C D Eb F G (all in the melody and all common to the various minor scales not counting more exotic ones) then 1) either Ab or A, and 2) either Bb or B. Or those four notes in any combination. So you can try them all and see what you like. Each combination, btw, has a different name: Aeolian, harmonic, melodic and Dorian. But, the important thing is to figure out, by ear, which notes you like over each chord.

When you get to the Fm, the blues nature of the tune means that some people will stay on Cm (aeolian) and make it sound good. For Fm, the Ab is the b3 which is important to the sound. So, you get F G Ab Bb C and then you make the same sort of choices of the 6th and 7th.

Your choices will probably turn out to be pretty standard, but I'd strongly recommend you figure them out by ear and fill in the theory later. If you google "scale finder" you'll find a tool that will allow you to type in the notes and it will give you the scale name. Then you can google that, dive into the theory and hope for the best <g>.

I like this way. I don't bother with modes. May be I should.

[orri]

I'm with you on the "jazz minor." Start a petition?

My first guitar teacher said to me "It's usually safe to use the term melodic minor, people know exactly what you mean in a jazz environment, but sometimes you might come across people who feel smart about having learnt a bit of classical music theory and for those circumstances we have the term jazz minor".

[Christian Miller]

My first guitar teacher said to me "It's usually safe to use the term melodic minor, people know exactly what you mean in a jazz environment, but sometimes you might come across people who feel smart about having learnt a bit of classical music theory and for those circumstances we have the term jazz minor".

Jazz minor jazz minor jazz minor jazz minor


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[Christian Miller]

I like this way. I don't bother with modes. May be I should.

melodic minor harmony is all on one note anyway.
maj7 on minor
#11 on 7,
9 on m7b5,
#5 on major 7

Learn to hear that one note and you’re golden.

For voicings there’s a couple of ones everyone uses. Cmaj7#5 will do you for
D7
Am(maj7)
F#m7b5

The melodic minor note in each case is G#

Bang. Sorted

(Except the altered. But that’s just the tritone sub really)

Fight me, Berkleeoids!


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[voyage]

You want to know and be able to use both. The diatonic notes to the key center; and what scales you can use over a chord that would fit the chord and context, but would contain outside notes from the key center. So to stay diatonic, you would play F dorian over the F-7 4 chord. If you wanted to use scales with outside notes, you could play F aeolian, F melodic minor, F blues etc..

Whoa, I think that last sentence is going to turn out to be important.

[pamosmusic]

Whoa, I think that last sentence is going to turn out to be important.

....... ehhhhhhh ..............

[voyage]

Thanks so much for all of the responses. There's a lot to think about here and a lot of approaches and I will be revisiting this thread again and again. It'll give me new things to try and think about and probably make new connections for me. Thank you guys very, very much.