Help, this theory question is blowing my mind

[voyage]

Suppose a melody in the key of C minor. The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c. Transposing it to the fourth mode of C minor, F phrygian, I get the notes f g a-flat c d-flat and f. Whether I write it down in notation, draw the notes on a neck diagram, or play it, the d-flat seems correct. But all modes of C minor must contain the same notes. How can it be that the ionian mode, the first mode, contains a d, while the phrygian mode contains a d-flat? I know I'm doing something wrong but it sounds right. Where is my error?
Thanks very much.

[Jimmy Smith]

If aeolian is the 1, dorian is the 4, not phrygian. F dorian has a d in it.

[pamosmusic]

If aeolian is the 1, dorian is the 4, not phrygian. F dorian has a d in it.

Also the transposition is incorrect either way.

If you're transposing it to a different mode of the same key, then you want a diatonic transposition rather than an exact transposition.

If I'm going from C D Eb and F, but I want to transpose it to the third degree of the scale, I use the same interval quantity, but with whatever quality is diatonic to the key. So ... Eb F G Ab

If I want to make a transposition to a different key, then I go for the exact same intervals from the root ... so Eb, up a whole step to F, up a half step to Gb, up a whole step to Ab. So Eb F Gb Ab.

So in your original thing ... to put it bluntly ... you came up with a note that wasn't in the key because you put a note there that wasn't in the key.

[pauln]

Are you transposing the key to F minor
rather than playing 4th mode C minor?

[voyage]

Thank you for the replies. I need to think through them to see where I'm off and then I'll come back with a question again. Thank you.

[Mick-7]

Thank you for the replies. I need to think through them to see where I'm off and then I'll come back with a question again.

C Minor (Natural Minor) is the Aeolian mode of EbMajor, which has the notes you wrote, but you left out the 7th note of the scale (Bb). You said: "The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c"

F Minor is the Aeolian mode of Ab Major, thus the Db (the 4th note of Ab Major scale).

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't know what it means to transpose a melody which is diatonic to Cminor -- to a mode of Cminor.

When you transpose a melody, if you want it to sound the same in the new key, all the intervals have to be the same.

That would mean you're transposing to Fminor not fourth mode of Cminor. They aren't the same thing.

[pamosmusic]

I don't know what it means to transpose a melody which is diatonic to Cminor -- to a mode of Cminor.

When you transpose a melody, if you want it to sound the same in the new key, all the intervals have to be the same.

That would mean you're transposing to Fminor not fourth mode of Cminor. They aren't the same thing.

Ive never referred to it the way he is referring to it but he’s talking about diatonic transposition

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The minor modes are: Natural minor, a.k.a., the Aeolian mode, 6th mode of a major key, Harmonic minor (raised 7th), and Melodic minor (raised 6th & 7th).

The melodic minor scale is not the same in both directions. The ascending melodic minor scale is as you describe. But the descending form is the natural minor scale.

[pamosmusic]

The melodic minor scale is not the same in both directions. The ascending melodic minor scale is as you describe. But the descending form is the natural minor scale.

In jazz no one really uses the term this way anymore

[Christian Miller]

I like to say 'jazz minor' - but for some reason people don't use that.

It bugs me and probably ONLY me that there is such a thing as 'melodic minor harmony' - reading that makes my eyes bleed regularly.

Anyway, this thing about the classical minor having a different scale going up and down and the jazz minor having a scale that is the same going up and down... reality as usual is more blinking complicated.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah, "melodic minor harmony" is an oxymoron...

I'm with you on the "jazz minor." Start a petition?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

As panasonic said, that's the classical version. Jazz uses both ascending and descending the same.

That’s just a modern adaptation. “Classical” doesn’t mean that it’s only to be used in classical music. I was taught music theory as a child in the 1950s as part of my classical piano studies, while I was also studying jazz on my own. I learned and have always liked the ascending-descending dichotomy, and I often use it in improvisation.

Jazz is a genre, not a rigid discipline.

[garybaldy]

C Minor (Natural Minor) is the Aeolian mode of EbMajor, which has the notes you wrote, but you left out the 7th note of the scale (Bb). You said: "The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c"

F Minor is the Aeolian mode of Ab Major, thus the Db (the 4th note of Ab Major scale).

I don't think I understand the op's question nor could I answer it but they are referring to a melody of notes in Cminor not a scale.
Would this alter the answer to the question?

[pamosmusic]

That’s just a modern adaptation. “Classical” doesn’t mean that it’s only to be used in classical music. I was taught music theory as a child in the 1950s as part of my classical piano studies, while I was also studying jazz on my own. I learned and have always liked the ascending-descending dichotomy, and I often use it in improvisation.

Jazz is a genre, not a rigid discipline.

It’s not the rules and rigid discipline. Obviously jazz mixes and matches things in ways that would make it normal to see a scale up one way and down the other. The difference would be that jazzers use melodic minor for its harmony. If I say I’m playing major scale stuff, it doesn’t mean I’m using just major scales. Maybe more non diatonic notes than diatonic. It just means I’m playing major scale harmony. Same for melodic minor. So it is a categorically different thing in jazz — used for a different purpose.

Christian will be along to correct me on gallant use of the melodic minor shortly or some sh**, but broad strokes.

(though I have to agree with Christian on how obnoxious it is to have to say melodic minor harmony)

[pamosmusic]

... reality as usual is more blinking complicated.

No it’s not! Theory is life!

[ragman1]

That’s just a modern adaptation. “Classical” doesn’t mean that it’s only to be used in classical music. I was taught music theory as a child in the 1950s as part of my classical piano studies, while I was also studying jazz on my own. I learned and have always liked the ascending-descending dichotomy, and I often use it in improvisation.

Jazz is a genre, not a rigid discipline.

Actually I've just deleted that post because I was only quoting something.

In practice, however, I've found that one has to be very careful using the mel m in certain situations. Say you have Dm7 - G7 - CM7. Going up, using the C# with the Dm is great. But coming down the C# isn't right, it's far better to resort to the natural C for it resolve nicely, both on the G7 and C.

So it depends. I often, indeed usually, use both directions of mel m but generally with non-resolving doms and other places. So it definitely depends. Regardless of any set definitions.

[Cunamara]

Suppose a melody in the key of C minor. The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c. Transposing it to the fourth mode of C minor, F phrygian, I get the notes f g a-flat c d-flat and f. Whether I write it down in notation, draw the notes on a neck diagram, or play it, the d-flat seems correct. But all modes of C minor must contain the same notes. How can it be that the ionian mode, the first mode, contains a d, while the phrygian mode contains a d-flat? I know I'm doing something wrong but it sounds right. Where is my error?

The error is in how you're thinking about transposition. Transposing is changing from the original key to a new key, such as taking a song in C minor and moving it to F minor (e.g., to accommodate the range of a horn or a singer). In this case, you preserve all the intervals and when going from C minor (3 flats) to F minor (4 flats) you'll acquire the D flat.

Shifting a line or melody up a 4th within a key (e.g., playing over the I chord vs. the IV chord in a C minor blues), you are staying within the original key (3 flats, C Aeolian) so you'll keep the D natural. This is not transposing, you might think of it as changing modes- as noted by someone else, this would be F Dorian not F Phrygian, which would have 5 flats.

However, you might or might not like the D natural against the F minor chord in context and might or might not use the D flat (e.g., voice leading a half step back the the C tonic note when the chord changes back to the I) instead. IMHO, voice leading like that tends to sound more "jazzy."

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So it is a categorically different thing in jazz — used for a different purpose.

I don't understand statements like "jazzers use melodic minor for its harmony". Don't we use every note for its harmony? To me, jazzers use melodic minor and any other construct in theory for its expressive value, whether going up, going down, or going nowhere in particular. Either melodic minor scale can be used in a tasty improv line over 5m7 5b 4 to transition from 1 to 4 in a blues. Flat the 5 after the b7 b6 for a little outside color on the way down to that 4. Using the "jazz melodic minor", flat it on the way up to the root over the 4. Run it up to the root going into a bridge whose first chord is a b7m9 that will move through a flat3dom7 to a flat6. Any scale can be used to say anything - some just say it more elegantly than others in any given setting.

I don't see any utility to assigning purposes to specific scales, notes, or other stylistic concepts. Trying to learn and implement rules (which you can call guidelines if it makes you feel better) seems to me to get in the way of learning to express yourself. I watch far too many decent players struggle to use "the right notes" in their solos when they should be letting their ideas flow. To me, the "purposes" of all music and all its elements are just to express and interpret the concepts of composers and performers, to entertain listeners, and to create something wonderful.

[pamosmusic]

I don't understand statements like "jazzers use melodic minor for its harmony". Don't we use every note for its harmony? To me, jazzers use melodic minor and any other construct in theory for its expressive value, whether going up, going down, or going nowhere in particular. Either melodic minor scale can be used in a tasty improv line over 5m7 5b 4 to transition from 1 to 4 in a blues. Flat the 5 after the b7 b6 for a little outside color on the way down to that 4. Using the "jazz melodic minor", flat it on the way up to the root over the 4. Run it up to the root going into a bridge whose first chord is a b7m9 that will move through a flat3dom7 to a flat6. Any scale can be used to say anything - some just say it more elegantly than others in any given setting.

I don't see any utility to assigning purposes to specific scales, notes, or other stylistic concepts. Trying to learn and implement rules (which you can call guidelines if it makes you feel better) seems to me to get in the way of learning to express yourself. I watch far too many decent players struggle to use "the right notes" in their solos when they should be letting their ideas flow. To me, the "purposes" of all music and all its elements are just to express and interpret the concepts of composers and performers, to entertain listeners, and to create something wonderful.

Okay.

All I mean is that we generally use melodic minor in situations where the underlying harmony is found within the scale. 7#11, tonic minor, altered dominant.

Any scale a person uses is extremely flexible and the raised sixth and seventh are useful in other situations too, but the melodic minor is a first call when the chord is one that is found in the notes of the scale. At which point descending the natural minor becomes moot.

And for what it’s worth … you’re here railing against the “rules” and the way they inhibit creativity, but the reason we’re talking about melodic minor at all is because you said someone’s definition was incorrect and that melodic minor is properly the raised sixth and seventh on the way up and natural minor on the way down. So …. Not sure why my ”rules” (which I never said were rules or guidelines) are presenting so much of a creative problem.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Not sure why my ”rules” (which I never said were rules or guidelines) are presenting so much of a creative problem.

I have no problem with them. I just don’t want those who are working hard to improve their playing to think that they have to adopt rules (or guidelines or whatever you want to call defined ways of playing) to solo creatively. From what I’ve seen and heard, trying to fit prelearned patterns into solos rarely results in greatness.

To be more clear, I should have said that the traditional melodic minor scale differs going up and down. I’m sorry if I misled anyone.

[Mick-7]

The melodic minor scale is not the same in both directions. The ascending melodic minor scale is as you describe. But the descending form is the natural minor scale.

Well, tell that to Bach, Beethoven, Vivaldi, et. al., who often used the "ascending" melodic minor scale in both descending and ascending movements. You guys are doing it all wrong!!

[pamosmusic]

I have no problem with them.

Ah, my mistake.

I just don’t want those who are working hard to improve their playing to think that they have to adopt rules (or guidelines or whatever you want to call defined ways of playing) to solo creatively.

Okay cool, well then you could maybe see where the nitpicking over naming melodic minor was misleading in this respect.

From what I’ve seen and heard, trying to fit prelearned patterns into solos rarely results in greatness.

Not so sure on this one. Though when I read this, something other than “scales” as such comes to mind.

[Mick-7]

I don't know what it means to transpose a melody which is diatonic to Cminor -- to a mode of Cminor.

When you transpose a melody, if you want it to sound the same in the new key, all the intervals have to be the same.

That would mean you're transposing to F minor not fourth mode of C minor. They aren't the same thing.

Yes, I think the op's bewilderment arose from the fact that he was confusing modes with keys. F minor is not a mode of C minor, they are two different keys - Ab & Eb major. Then again, F minor is the Dorian mode of Eb Major: F-G-Ab-Bb-C-D-Eb - maybe that's what the op was thinking.

[wolflen]

Suppose a melody in the key of C minor. The notes are c d e-flat g a-flat c. Transposing it to the fourth mode of C minor, F phrygian, I get the notes f g a-flat c d-flat and f. Whether I write it down in notation, draw the notes on a neck diagram, or play it, the d-flat seems correct. But all modes of C minor must contain the same notes. How can it be that the ionian mode, the first mode, contains a d, while the phrygian mode contains a d-flat? I know I'm doing something wrong but it sounds right. Where is my error?
Thanks very much.

If you are in the Key of C minor..then the C minor is the Aeolian mode NOT the Ionian mode..of the relative key Eb Major-which is the Ionian mode

thus..F then is the Dorian mode in relation to this key structure.

Also I think your using the word transpose wrong..your just moving the melody notes up a fourth (in the key of C minor) to F minor..NOT to a new KEY of F minor.

See if adjusting your modes helps the problem