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Maybe this topic was discussed previously. I would like to hear your thoughts. I will tell you a little about my story.
When I first started, I learned the Berklee method. As you know, they relate the IIIm7 to phrygian mode, where the b2 and b6 would not be included in the chord voicing since they are avoided notes. This caused me some conflict because, to my ears, that minor 7th chord never sounded phrygian, like, for instance, a susb9 chord.
After years of research, I discovered that what I learned from Berklee dealt with functional harmony (at that time, I didn't even know that there could be another system like modal harmony). I discovered that in the modal system, the b2 is an essential tone on a true phygian chord. Also, there is no function; the phrygian chord would not be called IIIm7.
On both systems, the scale is the same, but they do not produce the same results. I have found out that many people have the same experience. I think that the Berklee method (associating functional harmony with church modes) in some way leads to misunderstanding.
PS: I found this podcast where the authors of The Berklee Book of Jazz Harmony talks about that:
90: Berklee Harmony - Interview With Joe Mulholland & Tom Hojnacki | Listen Notes (min: 29:20)Last edited by rodolfoguitarra; 03-17-2024 at 09:20 AM.
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03-17-2024 09:01 AM
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I've studied in Berklee, and their method has different classes for functional and modal harmony, since they work differently.
For example, using the b9 on a minor chord as a chord tone would probably sound problematic in a functional harmony type progression (your average standard), but would be an essential tool in a Phrygian modal tune, both in melody and harmony.
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Originally Posted by Alter
Yes, I think that in the face-to-face classes these differences were well explained. I have not studied at Berklee, so what I have reported was what I have interpreted (or misinterpreted) from their method.
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Similarly the 6th of IImin7 chord is typically considered an avoid note within the functional II-V-I . But it is the characteristic note within the Dorian modal context.
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"For example, using the b9 on a minor chord as a chord tone would probably sound problematic in a functional harmony type progression (your average standard)."
Not at all, IIm7b5 is a common jazz II chord, and so the scale built on the 7th of the the key (locrian) is most commonly used, e.g., C Locrian over Cm7b5.
"Similarly the the 6th of IImin7 chord is typically considered an avoid note in the functional II-V-I"
Don't see how it can be an avoid note since it is diatonic to the key.... perhaps you meant the 6th note in the Aeolian mode (VI), which is flatted?
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Oh boy. In jazz parlance "avoid notes" are typically diatonic. In the chord-scale system of thinking, the notes of the scale that a chord comes from are divided into three groups: Chord tones, available tensions and unavailable tensions (avoid notes). They are all diatonic (typically) so to speak. Originally Posted by Mick-7
I think you are also confusing harmonic avoid notes and melodic avoid notes. It is debatable if there is such a thing as melodic avoid notes. Every note can work as passing notes or suspensions when speaking melodically. But OP is I think talking about harmonic avoid notes. Even though you can also move notes in harmony, "harmonic avoid note" usually means notes that are not stable within the intended function when sustained against the chord tones.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-17-2024 at 12:53 PM.
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I hate the term “avoid note,” but generally we’re talking about a note that disrupts or obscures the function of the chord.
The idea that those notes need to be avoided in the first place is silly though.
Can’t play an F over a C major chord!
Except that people do all the time, as passing notes, as tension notes that resolve downward, as parts of structures that sound coherent in their own, etc etc.
If “avoid notes” referred to non-diatonic notes, then there wouldn’t really be any use for the term in the first place. But, “avoid note” means something different … it just happens to be a bad term for the thing it means also
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Let´s be clear:
Harmonic Avoid Notes definition according Berklee Jazz Harmony Book: notes that are diatonic to the key and are necessary to complete the scale but do not sound stylistically acceptable when sustained against the basic chord.
Of course you can use the b2 as a passing tone.
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o.k., I guess I'm not clear on what the OP was asking.... I mean, in jazz there are no set harmonic rules, they can be whatever you and whoever you're playing with agree they are.
"Harmonic Avoid Notes definition according Berklee Jazz Harmony Book: notes that are diatonic to the key and are necessary to complete the scale but do not sound stylistically acceptable when sustained against the basic chord."
o.k., I understand now, but my previous statement still applies.
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My understanding (maybe wrong?)
Avoid notes are really a voicing thing. If you create an extended voicing then avoid notes would usually be considered an ‘intolerable dissonance’.
Avoid notes are actually extremely common in real world melodies because real world melodies use dissonance for expressiveness. A good example is the use of natural 4’s on major chords in the melody of Stella for example. in fact these passing dissonances are one of the things that drives functional harmony.
CST extends the concept of what maybe considered a chord tone or consonance or non dissonant tone - for example we may see the 4th on the minor chord as a minor 11th in the B of Stella (although I would have expected the composer would have considered it a dissonance within the late romantic idiom he was writing in.) Avoid note are the tones that aren't easily incorporated in this way.
On a personal note, the main problem I have with the avoid note concept is that my ears and analysis don't agree with the Berklee textbook theoretical definition. For instance, the fourth on a dominant chord is much less dissonant sounding than on a major seventh.
i think its good to come to your own conclusions.
Stephon Harris’s approach agrees much more closely with what my ears perceive.
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The b9 is also an harmonic avoided note in this case. Originally Posted by Mick-7
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If it sounds bad, it is bad. Otherwise it's not.
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My other problem with the avoid note idea as a tool in teaching improvisation is that it’s bad psychology.
It all makes more sense when you realise it’s about voicings. You may consider notes in a line part of an extended chord voicing, or not, depending on context and subjective perception. Sometimes a 2nd is a 9th, sometimes it’s just a passing tone, etc.
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Ok guys, remember that the discussion is not about avoid notes.
The big question is: Why call IIIm7 phrygian since it does not sound phrygian?
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I mean the answer I’d give is diatonic context (and you do at least sometimes see unresolved b6’s on IIIm7 chords in standards because it’s a common sub for I.)
But in Berklee world - no idea.
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There are no bad notes. Originally Posted by ragman1
Dissonance is not bad. Even the sharpest dissonance can used artfully to enhance the beauty of a consonance.
And some times dissonance produces a powerful musical effect of itself.
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Yeah not really sure I get the question. Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
Functional harmony, it probably doesn't sound phrygian because it sounds more like a sub for I or IV depending on which extension you're including.
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This is why I hate the term avoid note. Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
It's like calling a kitchen knife "an avoid blade" or something. It's not that you should avoid them. It's that they have purposes and should be used for those purposes.
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I suppose asking why a IIIm7 phrygian is kind of circular - it answers itself. By giving the numeral you’ve specified a position within a diatonic key.
If you asked what would make an isolated m7 chord in for instance, a modal tune, is phrygian and the answer is that it is not, it is Dorian. The 7sus4b9 chord is Phrygian.
Otoh you do often see m7b6 chords in modern charts (Rosenwinkel is fond of that sound). However the b6 is a softer dissonance imo than the b9.
Historical note - I’m happy to be corrected by those on JGO who have better knowledge, but as I understand it the emphasis of the Berklee syllabus was in the formative 70s era focussed on post-functional music such as fusion and contemporary jazz. The CST syllabus reflects this emphasis.
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In pop jazz harmony, yes there is the guideline of eliminating the sound of phyrgian or aeolian, for example, and just having the vanilla minor 7 / dorian sound. I think Peter and Christian's explanations are accurate that it disrupts the diatonic function.. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN'T USE THOSE PHRYGIAN OR AEOLIAN NOTES FOR YOUR OWN IDEAS WITHIN FUNCTIONAL HARMONY. Experiment with using those scales over those chords and experiment with adding notes to the voicings that identify that tonality.
There's a BH video where he talks about playing the phrygian over a minor 7 chord rather than dorian.
It's idiomatic to organ to use these types of sounds sometimes so it's something I absolutely use. I do not follow the guideline of always omitting phygian or aeolian notes, for example. Even though I'm using functional harmony and not modal.
The BH clip:
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 03-17-2024 at 02:30 PM.
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A chord that "sounds phrygian," what does that even mean? Could you give an example?
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My inclination might be that tertian harmony carries with it some kind of implication of “function” to our ears … which is why fourths are so useful in modal music. So maybe that’s why the min7 chord doesn’t sound as modal as the sus chord. Originally Posted by Mick-7
Though I’m not sure I totally follow the question either
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In my view, pigeonholing yourself into a vanilla diatonic harmony system is not smart in jazz. You want to experiment with tonalities so that you can learn to utilize an array of colors for your music. Your guitar will not blow up if you use phrygian or aeolian scales or chords within a tonal tune. Imo, that's a really stupid guideline to avoid those. Since they're quite viable, and THEY'RE DIATONIC MODES. They're not that extravagant.
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In other words, the question is: Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Do you think associating modal names with functional harmony causes misleading since we are not dealing with modal harmony?
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No, that can be useful because there are modes in tonal harmony. Modes are just the diatonic chords but in scale form. Would it freak you out if you talked about the I, ii, and V? Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
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