Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes, I remember Reg asking if you'd like to sit in with him some time ago. I'm glad you're doing it.

Reg is a great comper, no question. I'm not quite certain what he means always from his descriptions but from his playing I think he's probably talking about the fills that he produces for basic progressions, they're very instructive.

I'd say if you really wanted to learn that stuff, and I'm certain it would be worthwhile, you and he ought to sit down together and he can show you carefully what he means and how it works. I don't think it would be terribly productive to try to do it at a gig. And you obviously live somewhere near each other. And, personally, I wouldn't want to try to do it here either. All those symbols aren't really the way to get it under the fingers. I think it would have to be demonstrated step by step privately.

But I've no doubt you'd get a big epiphany if you could get some way into understanding it by doing it. And, as you say, the soloing could be radically affected by having those patterns and subs under your fingers and before your eyes.

Agree. I'd add that a lot of the info is already available on Reg's youtube channel. One aspect that really is clear from hearing a gig is the snap, crackle and pop of the comping. That is, how propulsive it feels. You think that would be obvious from recordings and hearing live shows, but, sitting in, next to Reg, brought that issue to life.

[Reg]

yea... you kind of know me... I'm way to loose etc....

But here is example of how I might play those changes for the "A" section of Exactly like you.

Its in a latin feel...LOL

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's another player who comps with melody and propulsion

If you boil the changes down to the bone, a good part of this tune is D7 G7 C Am7 Dm7 Bm7b5 E7 A7. But, Chico is not strumming cowboy chords.

In fact, he is employing a lot of the kinds of devices that Reg is posting about. Melody on top of the comping (that is, created by the highest note in each chord), great rhythmic sense, constant movement (which creates the melody) and a lot of harmonic variations instead of the vanilla version. He also puts that Ab on top of the D9 grip, using it to create melody and harmonic interest.

[ragman1]

He's using a lot of quartal sounds, sus chords and m11's, that kind of thing.

[Irishmuso]

He's using a lot of quartal sounds, sus chords and m11's, that kind of thing.

As long as he has the keyboard and bass playing the changes the guitar player can do his own thing. Was the guitarist just sitting in with a well rehearsed band?

[ragman1]

As long as he has the keyboard and bass playinanceg the changes the guitar player can do his own thing.

Not necessarily, especially with a keyboard.

Was the guitarist just sitting in with a well rehearsed band?

That was a professional performance in front of an audience. What do you think, they only just met?

[Tal_175]

Here's another player who comps with melody and propulsion

If you boil the changes down to the bone, a good part of this tune is D7 G7 C Am7 Dm7 Bm7b5 E7 A7. But, Chico is not strumming cowboy chords.

In fact, he is employing a lot of the kinds of devices that Reg is posting about. Melody on top of the comping (that is, created by the highest note in each chord), great rhythmic sense, constant movement (which creates the melody) and a lot of harmonic variations instead of the vanilla version. He also puts that Ab on top of the D9 grip, using it to create melody and harmonic interest.

It's a very rhythm guitar oriented accompanying. He is maintaining a repeating rhythmic figure (Latin feel in this case) while moving chords a lot of the times. There is some melodic interaction but he is mainly in the rhythm role.

These pages provide a good breakdown of the father of this style (rhythm guitar with moving chords):

Harmonic Techniques to Create Moving Chord Progressions using Three Note Voicings
Part 2 - Harmonic Techniques to Create Moving Chord Progressions using Three Note Voicings
Harmonic Techniques to Create Moving Chord Progressions using Three Note Voicings - Pert 3

[Reg]

Yea... there are different what I call just "effects" that one can use to help shape whatever your trying to accomplish when comping.

Obviously the implied changes, which from analysis become tonal targets. You then can use different chord patterns to connect or bridge them together.

The better you understand how to musically organize the bridging and effect together, (the big picture),
the better the results will be.

I think Tal was referring to horizontal chord movement... something like say the the last two bars of Exactly Like You "A" section taking the 2nd ending to the "B" section... / C6 / C7/

Tal might use... I'm just guessing from watching your vids... which are great

X 3 2 2 3 X
X 4 5 3 5 X
X 5 3 5 6 X
X 6 7 5 7 X
--------------
X 7 8 7 8 X
X 9 10 8 10 X
X 10 8 10 11 X
X X 8 9 9 11
__________
X 8 7 8 8 8

Which is traditional, smooth and works.... again personally these are "effects", tool to bridge with.

This style will tend to somewhat become lost in ensemble playing when over used. But we guitar players seem to love it. (I still do but only as an effect etc...)

The same with 3 note voicings.... they blend in when overused. Personally they become like what's already implied... But are a great effect... when not overused.

The Vid posted is Chino Pinheiro, monster player, love his playing. Another one of those shitty Berklee players...LOL.
hey Rick didn't Scottie use to tour with Chino, Eric's son.

[Irishmuso]

Not necessarily, especially with a keyboard.


That was a professional performance in front of an audience. What do you think, they only just met?

As all gigging guitarists know you generally have to stay out of the keyboard player's way but otherwise its wide open.

I simply posed the question . Anyone know the answer?

[pamosmusic]

As all gigging guitarists know you generally have to stay out of the keyboard player's way but otherwise its wide open.

I simply posed the question . Anyone know the answer?

Its called “Chico Pinheiro and Group” so going out on a limb, I’ll say he’s playing with his own rehearsed group.

As for the question about the piano — no, you can’t just do your own thing. You have to play within the structure of the tune. There are points where dissonance happens and other where resolution happens and ways of building from one to the next and you might not need to be playing precisely the same extensions or even be conceptualizing the chords the same way but you have to be playing the tune.

Also worth mentioning that even though tensions and things don’t need to match exactly, there’s still a push and pull. The soloist implies some really out stuff, and the next time around the accompanist follows. The soloist pushes a bit further but grabs some things the accompanist gave them. Next time around the accompanist follows suit or adds to it. So there is interaction and structural development and a really close match between the different musicians in the group even if it isn’t the way we normally think of it.

[Christian Miller]

yea... you kind of know me... I'm way to loose etc....

But here is example of how I might play those changes for the "A" section of Exactly like you.

Its in a latin feel...LOL

Nice.

I would regard this as a bit too busy for a comp in itself, more like a punctuating phrase between phrases by a soloist.

So this is bread and butter stuff and what I’m alluding to when I talk about the importance of learning stock grips. Nothing reg plays here is ‘clever’ but it all works musically because of the stepwise melody in the top voice and the rhythm.

This is all meat and potatoes jazz vocab, and I mean this in a nice way,not to suggest it’s lacking in anything or not sufficient.

The language I would use to describe this is
1) tonicisation of the II7 chord (in this case using a secondary minor II V)
2) use of classic lead lines (eg #9-b9-1) on dom7’s
3) use of chromatic side slips on II7
4) turnarounds using a lead line, in this case
5) turns back turnarounds (eg III VI II V not I VI II v I) don’t overdo I
6) use of a lead line on the II7 chord to dress up the static chord. All voicings are II dominant but they are different to break it up
7) use of IIm7b5 and V7alt for secondary ii V’s and so on.
8) VERY IMPORTANT - no repeated voicings. By which I mean each voicing is followed by another voicing and the same voicing is never reattacked. This is something it took me ages to learn not to do.

Apologies if I’ve missed anything

I will say - if you can’t track everything reg is doing here you don’t be needing to think about drop2s, Barry Harris scales of chords or modes or anything else.

I wonder if there’s a danger this type of simple grips based comping is being a bit lost as people jump straight in with in clever concepts and piano type stuff.

Be a guitar player

[Reg]

As long as he has the keyboard and bass playing the changes the guitar player can do his own thing. Was the guitarist just sitting in with a well rehearsed band?

That's even more loose than me... LOL

Might be better said.... As long as the piano and bass know what they are doing and the guitarist also understands what they are doing.... he can do his own thing.

Chino has performed with most of the great Brazilian musician... he and the pianist in vid, Fabio Torres have long history. While not his band.... they have worked together for ever. Have also worked with another vocalist/ guitarist Rosa Passos. (not the vocalist in vid That was Tatiana Parra)

I don't know the history of that performance, Rick knows much more than I. But in the working world.... that's what we do...there hasn't been well rehearsed approach for a while.

[Reg]

Nice.

I would regard this as a bit too busy for a comp in itself, more like a punctuating phrase between phrases by a soloist.

So this is bread and butter stuff and what I’m alluding to when I talk about the importance of learning stock grips. Nothing reg plays here is ‘clever’ but it all works musically because of the stepwise melody in the top voice and the rhythm.

This is all meat and potatoes jazz vocab, and I mean this in a nice way,not to suggest it’s lacking in anything or not sufficient.

The language I would use to describe this is
1) tonicisation of the II7 chord (in this case using a secondary minor II V)
2) use of classic lead lines (eg #9-b9-1) on dom7’s
3) use of chromatic side slips on II7
4) turnarounds using a lead line, in this case
5) turns back turnarounds (eg III VI II V not I VI II v I) don’t overdo I
6) use of a lead line on the II7 chord to dress up the static chord. All voicings are II dominant but they are different to break it up
7) use of IIm7b5 and V7alt for secondary ii V’s and so on.
8) VERY IMPORTANT - no repeated voicings. By which I mean each voicing is followed by another voicing and the same voicing is never reattacked. This is something it took me ages to learn not to do.

Apologies if I’ve missed anything

I will say - if you can’t track everything reg is doing here you don’t be needing to think about drop2s, Barry Harris scales of chords or modes or anything else.

I wonder if there’s a danger this type of simple grips based comping is being a bit lost as people jump straight in with in clever concepts and piano type stuff.

Be a guitar player

Hey Christian... thanks. I've always said I'm very simple, as least that's the style I like to use. The post was like... start the phone and play... LOL.

Why don't you post an example... of how it should be played. I do get the part about being busy. But I am just playing solo... I also know all the the musicians I work with... usually want me to play more and louder LOL

Usually the reason most guitarist don't comp in the simple style I do is because... well that can't .

I don't thinks it's lost... Most guitarist want to be a sax

[rpjazzguitar]

As long as he has the keyboard and bass playing the changes the guitar player can do his own thing. Was the guitarist just sitting in with a well rehearsed band?

They were a band. Not a sit-in situation.

[rpjazzguitar]

Yea... there are different what I call just "effects" that one can use to help shape whatever your trying to accomplish when comping.

Obviously the implied changes, which from analysis become tonal targets. You then can use different chord patterns to connect or bridge them together.

The better you understand how to musically organize the bridging and effect together, (the big picture),
the better the results will be.

I think Tal was referring to horizontal chord movement... something like say the the last two bars of Exactly Like You "A" section taking the 2nd ending to the "B" section... / C6 / C7/

Tal might use... I'm just guessing from watching your vids... which are great

X 3 2 2 3 X
X 4 5 3 5 X
X 5 3 5 6 X
X 6 7 5 7 X
--------------
X 7 8 7 8 X
X 9 10 8 10 X
X 10 8 10 11 X
X X 8 9 9 11
__________
X 8 7 8 8 8

Which is traditional, smooth and works.... again personally these are "effects", tool to bridge with.

This style will tend to somewhat become lost in ensemble playing when over used. But we guitar players seem to love it. (I still do but only as an effect etc...)

The same with 3 note voicings.... they blend in when overused. Personally they become like what's already implied... But are a great effect... when not overused.

The Vid posted is Chino Pinheiro, monster player, love his playing. Another one of those shitty Berklee players...LOL.
hey Rick didn't Scottie use to tour with Chino, Eric's son.

Scottie played in NYC with Cesar Camargo Mariano (whose son is the bassist in that video) iirc and toured Europe with Chico and Rafa Barrata (drumset).

[rpjazzguitar]

That's even more loose than me... LOL

Might be better said.... As long as the piano and bass know what they are doing and the guitarist also understands what they are doing.... he can do his own thing.

Chino has performed with most of the great Brazilian musician... he and the pianist in vid, Fabio Torres have long history. While not his band.... they have worked together for ever. Have also worked with another vocalist/ guitarist Rosa Passos. (not the vocalist in vid That was Tatiana Parra)

I don't know the history of that performance, Rick knows much more than I. But in the working world.... that's what we do...there hasn't been well rehearsed approach for a while.

Fabio Torres, Edu Ribeiro (drums) went on with bassist Paulo Paulelli -- after playing with Chico -- to win a Grammy with Paquito D'Rivera as Trio Corrente. And, I think they got another nomination this year but didn't win. Chico was nominated also, I believe. Chico recently did a week in Australia with Herbie Hancock.

The tune in the video is April Child, by Moacir Santos. The groove, which afaik is unique to this tune, was invented by Moacir and is called "Mojo".

[rpjazzguitar]

Nice.

I would regard this as a bit too busy for a comp in itself, more like a punctuating phrase between phrases by a soloist.

So this is bread and butter stuff and what I’m alluding to when I talk about the importance of learning stock grips. Nothing reg plays here is ‘clever’ but it all works musically because of the stepwise melody in the top voice and the rhythm.

This is all meat and potatoes jazz vocab, and I mean this in a nice way,not to suggest it’s lacking in anything or not sufficient.

The language I would use to describe this is
1) tonicisation of the II7 chord (in this case using a secondary minor II V)
2) use of classic lead lines (eg #9-b9-1) on dom7’s
3) use of chromatic side slips on II7
4) turnarounds using a lead line, in this case
5) turns back turnarounds (eg III VI II V not I VI II v I) don’t overdo I
6) use of a lead line on the II7 chord to dress up the static chord. All voicings are II dominant but they are different to break it up
7) use of IIm7b5 and V7alt for secondary ii V’s and so on.
8) VERY IMPORTANT - no repeated voicings. By which I mean each voicing is followed by another voicing and the same voicing is never reattacked. This is something it took me ages to learn not to do.

Apologies if I’ve missed anything

I will say - if you can’t track everything reg is doing here you don’t be needing to think about drop2s, Barry Harris scales of chords or modes or anything else.

I wonder if there’s a danger this type of simple grips based comping is being a bit lost as people jump straight in with in clever concepts and piano type stuff.

Be a guitar player

My perhaps overly simplistic take on it was:

1. make melody with the highest note in each chord, including the occasional non-diatonic note, like the #11 on the D9.

2. keep it moving, with smooth voice leading

3. use tritone subs and side slips.

4. use guitar voicings and sequences that sound jazzy

5. play every last note with snap, crackle and pop.

6. Don't get tired. This is a demanding way to play. It takes a lot of energy to keep changing chords this often, in this way.

[Tal_175]

My perhaps overly simplistic take on it was:

1. make melody with the highest note in each chord, including the occasional non-diatonic note, like the #11 on the D9.

2. keep it moving, with smooth voice leading

3. use tritone subs and side slips.

4. use guitar voicings and sequences that sound jazzy

5. play every last note with snap, crackle and pop.

6. Don't get tired. This is a demanding way to play. It takes a lot of energy to keep changing chords this often, in this way.

The Joe Pass chords book provides a good primer for Reg's approach. The example on p20 is almost identical to what Reg played over Cmaj. It's interesting that Joe Pass also called them "chord patterns":

[Christian Miller]

Randy Vincent’s ‘guitarists introduction to jazz’ has some nice stuff in it, basic comps and that.


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[Jimmy Smith]

The only things that are required to comp with melody and propulsion can be broken down by thinking of the 3 aspects of music: melody, harmony, and rhythm.

1. First, it's required that you work with the top voice. It has to have a melody to it, even though it doesn't need to or shouldn't take the attention. This is achieved by simply thinking of the scale over the inversions to the written chords, arpeggiating the chords, or only a sequence of inversions. The melody note doesn't require advanced interaction with continual chord movement beneath.

2. You might have to embellish the chords a bit from the vanilla harmony to make the harmony sound jazzy and pleasing. Use nice extensions in the melody like the 9th or 13th.

3. Phrase rhythmically: use time keeping rhythmic motives, or use melodic rhythmic motives.

That's really it. Beyond that you can make it more advanced with further devices like lower voices, intervals like 6ths, being more active with the topic voice, or being more technical with more chords/subs/BH.

[Reg]

The Joe Pass chords book provides a good primer for Reg's approach. The example on p20 is almost identical to what Reg played over Cmaj. It's interesting that Joe Pass also called them "chord patterns":

Wow... thanks Tal.... yes... Pass was still a Harmonic minor and embellish guy... but his blues sure worked. His playing was big influence on me... I was still at Berklee in 74 when his solo album came out.... we all started transcribing and copied his style LOL

I guess you could say I play in the Joe Pass style but with BS education and arranging info etc...

[Mick-7]

I imagine I have the Joe Pass' chord book around somewhere... but he also covers chord substitution, chord cycles, etc., in his Guitar Style book. He spent a lot of time on it in his workshops.

[Tal_175]

Randy Vincent’s ‘guitarists introduction to jazz’ has some nice stuff in it, basic comps and that.


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I worked through quite a bit of his three note voicings book. His approach to chord motion/substitution is more moving inside the chord with different voicings, inversions and passing chords rather than back-cycling with targets (as in Reg's approach and the Joe Pass substitution examples).

[Christian Miller]

I worked through quite a bit of his three note voicings book. His approach to chord motion/substitution is more moving inside the chord with different voicings, inversions and passing chords rather than back-cycling with targets (as in Reg's approach and the Joe Pass substitution examples).

Yeah, there’s different approaches.

Part of the difficulty I have with ‘demonstrating a comp’ is having heard reg do it I’d do something similar what he did. What it would occur to me to do in the moment in a gig might be something different.

As far as gigs go there are sometimes stylistic constraints. I still get booked to play rhythm guitar often and it’s expected that I do that. I often play in a big band with keys. If I’m playing with another guitarist I won’t be putting voicings on the top four strings; and so on and so forth.


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[GuyBoden]

Dm7 / G7 / CM7 = "Front Door"

Fm7 / Bb7 / CM7 = "Back Door"

Abm7 / Db7 / CM7 = "Side Door"

F#m7 / B7 / CM7 = "Next Door"

Dm7 / AbM7 /CM7 = "Jack Door"