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Rag... most avoid notes are just labeled that way because that tend to destabilize or interfere with the Chord sound. They are not wrong.... they require different guidelines for basic vanilla usage.
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03-28-2024 11:29 AM
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I can't swear that I understand this. But, if we're talking about different paths through a I VI II V, each path can be conceptualized by scales/modes or by chord names. Is that much correct?
Originally Posted by Reg
In many cases the scale/mode approach finds 7 notes, one of which is harder to use than the others. The chord name approach focuses on the first 6 notes.
If you expand a chord to make it a chord pattern, you have a lot of choices. Reg does this as well as anybody (which makes me very interested in his view). In a chord pattern each chord can be addressed individually (each chord now gets specific extensions and they become fodder for improv) , or an over-arching concept can be found (like just playing in the key of the I for a iii VI ii V.
What I haven't yet grasped is the specific advantage of thinking about scale names rather than chord names, given that they tend to differ by one note and that note tends to be an avoid note (meaning, a note that makes the harmony more ambiguous -- and you can go in that direction or not).
There seem to be some exceptions. Maybe melodic minor, maybe lydian mode. I'm still thinking about those.
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Scales are just another approach for a reference to create relationships with.... that can be different than chord tones etc... Not better or right.... but is a different understanding to use as organization.
Another layer...
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I know, I said that earlier. Originally Posted by Reg
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I think what Reg means is using I VI II V as a chord pattern when we have, for example, a static I maj chord (aka back-cycling). I that case it doesn't make sense to talk about the 4th being an avoid note for the I maj chord since that note (the 4th) would appear in the chord pattern in the context of other chords (in II or in V for example). Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Anyway, one question is the term avoid note always applicable? This is a modal piece in 3/4:
BbM7#11 - % - % - %
GbM7#11 - % - % - %
F7#11 - %
There's no doubt it is LITTERED with avoid notes. But the point is who cares? It fits. It's played with major scales, pentatonics, some blues, melodic minors and lyd doms, sometimes separately, sometimes all mixed up together.
Theoretically I'm sure it could be torn to pieces but I don't hear anything that seriously goes clang. Make of it what you will.
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Lines =/= voicings
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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So, the idea is that the chart says, say Cmaj7, but somebody is going to play Cmaj7, A7, D7 (or is it Dm7), G7. So, the avoid note in C is an F, which occurs in the G7. Since the F is contained somewhere in the chord pattern (in the G7 and Dm7, if you use it) , then it can't be considered an avoid note? Is that it? Originally Posted by Tal_175
So, if I understand it, if you don't think about avoid notes, you play what amounts to C Ionian over the entire sequence. That is, you treat the entire chord pattern as if it takes the scale for the underlying individual chord. Is that what you mean? That means an F over the C major. Then a C against A7, a chord that has a C#. Then an F over a D7, a chord that has an F#. And, finally a C against a G7. Also a D over A7 and a G over D7.
Can that work? Sure! Will it be pure vanilla? Not with the #9s and 11s. Seems to me it will work best when the chord pattern is played so that the chord changes occur rapidly. Also when you get those notes in an upper octave.
But to come back to the central point, how does thinking about scales actually help compared to thinking about chord names?
One point is that I do find thinking about tonal centers to be useful. And, that's a scale. Not quite the same as thinking C Harmonic Minor to cover a G7b9b13. But still, a use for thinking about a scale.
But, to my ear, when you think about tonal center, you also have to think about chord tones. So that you'll know, for example, that the VI7 contains a note that isn't in the tonal center and there's a choice to be made. To me, it is "C tonal center, but A7, so the C needs to be adjusted to C#, unless I want a #9 sound".
If somebody looked at C to A7 by thinking C Ionian to A mixolydian, that will work. I think it's no substitute for knowing, instantly, that there's a C# in the chord, that the C is the #9 and you're going to have decide on F vs F# based on harmonic context. Meanwhile, don't lean on an F over the C, nor a D over the A7.
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Sort of. If a single chord becomes a chord pattern, then the question becomes what types of chord patterns work well in that harmonic context. The avoid note of the original chord now is not heard against the original chord. A different functional device is in place. That's my take on it anyways. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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This reveals another gap in my knowledge. How are chord patterns crafted? Originally Posted by Tal_175
I know about a few devices:
1. different inversions
2. harmonized scales
3. tritone subs
4. sequences I've heard or read somewhere
5. half step slides.
6. back cycling
7. Stuff Reg does that I wish I knew how to find from theory.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-28-2024 at 10:46 PM.
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Chord patterns...
As far as I understand Regspeak, you basically got two kinds...those right in the tunes and those that are implied...or can be imposed.
So a written chord pattern would be something like a I Vi ii V. Or like Lullaby of Birdland's first few bars...or...
Or you can imply stuff...Cmaj7 Dm7 G7 can easily become Cmaj Em7b5 A7b13 Dm9 G13b9...
Chord patterns can suggest a harmonic area, or like a target...back to Lullaby, you could try playing over every chord, or you can see those first bars as just i and V. And then it goes to i to V of I...so the chords are common patterns that get you from point A to point B...
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In the way I view it, there are two types of chord patterns. One type are patterns that create chord motion with the existing harmony. The other type are reharmonization patterns. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think you can analyze any example of the first type (chord motion) as falling into one of the three categories:
1- Moving with different voicings of a chord.
2- I-V-I movements.
3- Chromatic approaches.
I put functional chord substitutions and inversions in the first category. For example to me tritone substitution is just as a voicing of the original chord. Likewise, Emin7 is just a rootless voicing of Cmaj9 or Bmin7b5 is just a rootless voicing of G9 etc. Note you can move one note of these substitutions and they become inversions. So inversions, substations, quartal voicings, different extensions, partial voicings etc. all in the first category. They are different (and perhaps at times more ambiguous) ways to play the chord. You explore moving between them to discover expressive ways to play the harmony. I work a lot on this.
I put all passing chords in the second category (I-V-I) because that's what they are. Diminished passing chords, dominant passing chords and even diatonic passing chords are different ways to create tension-release patterns as you move. Note diatonic passing chords share a lot of common tones with diminished and dominant passing chords. They just don't contain chromantic notes so they sound more parallel (and vanilla).
Chromatic approaches are any chord resolving chromatically to a target chord. They are usually parallel because (at least on guitar) parallel chromatic chords are easy to play.
Reharmonization patterns are less safe to use without a prior discussion in group settings I think. Of course that's not a constraint in solo playing. Back-cycling, modal interchange and key changes are common devices. I haven't experimented with reharmonization patterns as much as harmonic motion patterns. Robert Conti's source code is mostly about reharmonization in solo context. Mark Levine's Jazz Theory book is also a good source for reharmonisation. As I said I haven't experimented with reharmonization so, unlike chord motions, my understanding of this category is more theoretical than experiential.
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I'm not sure this is worth answering. rp has been here a long time and isn't a bad player. But all this is at the same time very basic yet is presented as extraordinarily complicated. It's not, like most things. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yes, theoretically over C/A7 - Dm/G7 you can play C Ionian. But in practice, of course, just noodling any old how with C major doesn't cut it. You could split the sequence, as Jeff suggested, into treating it as just a I-V but even then the same thing applies. You'd get caught up on the A7's C# note.
And if you go even further and make it CM7/C#o - Dm7/G7+ you'd be up a gum tree even further. And if the chords became Em7b5/A7b13 - Dm9/G13b9 then god help us...
Analysing it endlessly with theory and worrying about avoid notes doesn't work. If you want to play over that last sequence competently then your notes have to fit; they have to work with the chords. So what will you do?
Different people have different mechanisms for coping with this kind of thing. Which means you have to find yours. Which means rp will have to find his. And, believe me, he will. But he's going to have to sit down and play it, not just try to work it out intellectually...
Or, rather, he can work it out intellectually but, when it comes to playing it, it's got to work otherwise there's not much point.
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I'd do it Gm/Bbm - Am/Fm but don't follow me!
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hey Rick... sorry i had to leave ...
Anyway what or where I'm going is .... it's not that simple. There are layers of what can and is going on all the time. By that I mean you have multiple choices of where to pull from or label notes going on at the same time.
Somewhat like playing over a Cma7 or C69 chord.... You have chord tones, the scale (and if you want avoid note, even though it's not really a note not to be used, it just require different musical organization or reference for creating relationships with.
And the we are use to using and hearing Blue Notes, rock, blue or jazz styles. So you have a few ways to label notes etc.
What I do and many other jazz players do... is expand that type of musical concept.
Take "Exactly Like You"... the Tune used in Feb. with Practical Standards.
Simple tune and harmony, like "A Train" so...
I'll go through the 1st 8 bars and show example how I might Play...
// C6 ........./ (C6) ............./ D7 ............/ (D7)............// D-7........../ G7 ........../ C6................/ D-7 G7 ..//
I might hear and play...
// C69 F13../ E-7b5 A7b13 / D9#11 A-7 / D13sus D13 // D-9 Eb13 / D9 G7b13 / E-7b5 A7b13 / D9 G7b13//
Which is just standard Chord Patterns and some Blue Notes using MM.
So technically.... Chord Tone approach gets complicated as well as Chord Scales approach. But when you combine those as well as Chord Pattern concepts and expand Functional Concepts... and throw in Blue Note concepts ....it become possible to use analysis and arranging concepts that work.
I use a lead Line over chord patterns and create voicings that fit the style.
I use simple Functional Harmony, Modal concepts, expand the harmonic and melodic References or what I create Relationships with and just play within what ever setting I'm in.
Wanted to add... Rick I know this takes chops etc.... but I've heard your playing improve in just the last year.
Well at least to me personally LOL. when you sit in etc...
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Realistically, this isn't really how improvising and chord embellishment works. We often have tension between all the passing chords the band is playing and what the soloist is playing, rather than having the soloist play every single change the pianist is implying. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Isn't it? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Yes, well, there's tension and there's tension, i.e. making a mess of it. If the pianist is playing what he's supposed to be playing - Em7b5/A7b13 - Dm9/G13b9 - I don't see a problem. When it's his solo he can do what he likes!We often have tension between all the passing chords the band is playing and what the soloist is playing, rather than having the soloist play every single change the pianist is implying.
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If we're playing a turnaround in C, and I play blues stuff, and the pianist plays those chords, it'll sound good. Originally Posted by ragman1
If I play C major and G altered, it'll sound good.
If I play Ab7#11 and Galt, it'll sound good.
Perfect matching with embellishments and substitutions isn't how it works in the wild.
Tension has to match tension.
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Hi Reg, I am trying to understand your blue note and MM usage. Originally Posted by Reg
So the first two bars are backcycling with D7 as the target: F13(B7alt) | E-7b5 A7b13| (D7)
In the third bar: (D9#11 A-7) D9#11 seem to suggest A melodic minor but not quite since we also got A-7. The #11 is a blue note.
In the fourth bar: D13sus D13 we are back to natural 11.
The last four bars are reharmonized with a turnaround: VI | ii V | iii VI | ii V
You often mention using MM as a reference to create tonal targets with blue notes. I always assumed that you meant using MM reference to create long patterns but I don't see an extended use of MM in this example except for individual bars. Am I missing something?
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Hey Tal...
Don't Know... but I rarely use harmonic or melodic reference very long. Maybe think like just using blue notes,
If that's all you use... it gets pretty vanilla etc...
So the 1st bar is all I IV jazz blues pattern, the 2nd bar is the approach for Target of D7...
You can make it all one Pattern... I just didn't hear that when I spelled it Out. And generally it can change as we actually play. I mean as with your approach with B7alt sub.... although I don't hear the #11 in the F13.... but can work.... I just don't like keeping same reference that long.... it's there but when you start pulling back and looking at bigger or longer sections of space... the rhythmic organization can come into play and I like having more options for references to expand.
The 3rd and 4th bar are both... A-7, dorian and MM... all the standard II V references I'm use bars 3 and 4 as well as 7 and 8 as targets... You could think Function as Dominant to Tonic or Target.
Bars 5 and 6 are like 1st 2 bars... separate reference targets.
This was just kind of off top of my head.... but I generally use Rhythmic and form with that rhythmic organization as the stronger factor when playing.
And Blues or Blue note references can be more than just #9, b7 and #4 or b5.... it expands and I use blues concepts of Form ... call and answer etc... It can get complicated and that why I generally have always pushed... getting ones chops together. LOL. It's just not really slow motion.
But I have put in the time working out how using all these concepts can work together... plug and play with layers of organization. Multiple options all going on at the same time....
It generally is more of a Live performance thing... it exciting for both the audience as well as the musicians.
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Thanks for this very helpful explanation with examples. Originally Posted by Reg
I'm going to post a few reactions, not quite on the exact subjects we've been talking about.
1. As I read your changes on screen (no guitar) I can hear the melody at the top of these chords. C C /Bb A/ Ab A/ B B (in bar 4 the movement is G to F#, which might be played on the D string)/ E F/ E Eb/ G F/ E Eb.
I mention this because, to my current way of thinking (which may not appreciate all that is going on), thinking about that melody line at the top of the chords makes the Ab make sense. I know and use that sound, although I've never thought of it as a blue note. I'm aware it's melodic minor, but I don't think of that either. It's just a good melody note when the chord is a D9.
2. I've taken a lot of lessons over the years, but I can't recall much about chord patterns. Sid Margolis, years ago. taught what he called "fill in" progressions, but he just had a couple of them. They'd be something like C7 Gm7 Co C7. He was a 30's era big band player, among other things. Carl Barry taught Chuck Wayne's approach to harmonizing every note of the original melody.
Reg's Exactly Like You chord patterns have what I think of as a high degree of movement. Every two beats there's a new chord, nicely voice led with a melody on top. That requires the knowledge of what to play and what seems like a kind of relentless energy not to settle for something simpler.
3. There are a lot of devices, and a theoretical explanation for each one. But, to actually get one into your playing seems like it would typically take an example or a trial and error process. That is, I'd probably have to learn one pattern at a time, and exactly how to apply it, at a high energy level, always within a song and then think carefully about how to transfer the idea to a different song. The words "modal interchange", and other theoretical concepts, for example, at this point, don't necessarily get me closer to the goal. Not a knock on the concepts; more a recognition of what works for me when I'm trying to get something new into my playing.
4. And then, bring a big enough amp in case I have to drown out the piano.
Thanks to everyone for furthering the discussion.
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Seems to me that the discussion, as is typical for the Internet, has multiple themes. Originally Posted by ragman1
One is whether, or in what situations, scale names are advantageous compared to thinking about chord tones. That's a kind of abstract topic for discussion.
Another is Reg's approach to comping with chord patterns. Reg has been kind to invite me to sit in with him quite a few times now. I'm sitting there reading the same chart he is and I hear the harmonic movement he employs with propulsive rhythm. And, on here, I read his descriptions of what he's doing. I can't avoid thinking, "I'd like to understand more about the sounds he's creating".
I agree that everybody has to find his own approach. And, I also think that it's possible to go down a rabbit hole which can help, or hinder, a player from finding his own voice. Right now, I'm looking to expand my horizons and I'm thinking "more chord patterns" for comping and "better rhythmic vocabulary" for soloing. I also think about "more harmonic variety in solos", but I think I'll get that for free if I can get the chord patterns and rhythms.
Mostly, improvement is the result of sustained effort. But, now and then there's improvement by epiphany. I don't want to overlook an epiphany.
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I practice this by moving chords on every beat. For example over the static C6 going to D7( | C6 | C6 | D7 |) one way would be: Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Imagine 5th string root, first bar ascending: | C6 Ebdim Emin11 Fmaj7 | then second bar descending | G6 Dmin/F Amin7/E Eb7 | D7
I just wrote this out as one simple example. I try several movement ideas over the tunes I work on. The ideas are based on the post #438. I'll try Reg's example when I pick up my guitar later. Reg's examples involve a lot of cycle of fifths. I tend to move more horizontally. Reg's example may help me get out of that a bit.Last edited by Tal_175; 03-29-2024 at 04:28 PM.
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Yes, I remember Reg asking if you'd like to sit in with him some time ago. I'm glad you're doing it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Reg is a great comper, no question. I'm not quite certain what he means always from his descriptions but from his playing I think he's probably talking about the fills that he produces for basic progressions, they're very instructive.
I'd say if you really wanted to learn that stuff, and I'm certain it would be worthwhile, you and he ought to sit down together and he can show you carefully what he means and how it works. I don't think it would be terribly productive to try to do it at a gig. And you obviously live somewhere near each other. And, personally, I wouldn't want to try to do it here either. All those symbols aren't really the way to get it under the fingers. I think it would have to be demonstrated step by step privately.
But I've no doubt you'd get a big epiphany if you could get some way into understanding it by doing it. And, as you say, the soloing could be radically affected by having those patterns and subs under your fingers and before your eyes.
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I like, just to detour into an example ...
x3545x x5556x x6757x x7778x
xx4554 xx4555 xx4557 xx7978
xx10 10 10 12, xx7968 xx3555 xx3454
xx2233 5x566x x5355x 3x345x.
Good idea to practice this. If I was better organized, I'd pick tunes and write out the patterns, a few a day, until Reg starts looking at my left hand. <g>
EDIT: In case anybody is interested, I just uploaded four tracks (five tunes total) from a recent gig. In the Showcase section of the forum.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-29-2024 at 08:39 PM.
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