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As I think about this stuff, yet again, my thinking goes here:
For any scale or mode that is comprised of seven white keys: six of those notes are accounted for in the chord name (assuming the consonant extensions are included). The other one is going to be the so-called avoid note. So, it seems to me to make sense to think of hexatonics for those situations. Six notes, not seven.
Melodic minor has no avoid note, so all the chords generated by melmin can have any of the notes per Levine. But let's take Cminmaj7 as an example. C D Eb F G A B C. Looks to me that one of those notes is going to alter the tonality of the chord more than the others. And, that's the F. So, all this can still be conceptualized, pretty well, as a hexatonic.
C HM is C D Eb F G Ab B C. Looks a lot like a G7b9b13. G B D F Ab Eb. Hexatonic. What's missing? The avoid note, C.
So, am I suggesting naming a bunch of hexatonics with Greek names and thinking that way? No. I'm suggesting using chord names (including the consonant non-harmony-altering extensions) and not bothering with mode or scale names until I can figure out something they actually help with.
Caveat: I'm no good at dots on grids, but I know the notes in the chords I use and I know the fingerboard.
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03-26-2024 06:35 PM
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And … that’s why yer licks are too long ;-)
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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@rp: Notes from the scale that kind of louse up the tonality of the parent chord aka the avoid note, you don't really have to worry about if you're passing over them quickly as part of scalar rhythmic passages. It's only if you're hanging on them in a melody or sounding them vertically as part of an extension that you have to worry about avoiding them. That's why for me, I wouldn't take the time to work out separate hexatonic scales. Just learn how to use the notes in a scale, which all sound differently anyway.
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Jordan Klemons’s triad stuff is fun in this respect. I’m a heretic and don’t always work on it the way he intends, but practicing those triad plus one ideas are super useful, and they’re pretty, and it’s really useful for getting those resolutions and stuff in the ear. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Usually, you hear about three kinds of notes. The chord tones, the consonant extensions and the tensions. In major scale harmony, the 1 3 5 6 nat7 and 9 are going to give a major tonic-y sound. It's just the chord tones and the obvious, consonant extensions. For dominant it varies, but often it's 6 notes that can be considered the chord tones. For minors, you start with 1 b3 5 and then you get to pick a 6th, a 7th and maybe a 9th or 11th. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
So, if you know the chord tones with these extensions, it seems to me that you already know the hexatonics. Nothing more to learn.
As far as the 7th note, it seems to me that it goes better with the "others" meaning the non-consonant notes. And, your point about passing over them is a good one.
I end up wondering if the issue is that, if you don't know the chord tones and where they are on the fingerboard, scales give you a different way to go about finding them. I still don't get why we talk about 7 note scales and then identify an avoid note -- rather than just talking about 6 note scales -- but I'm confident that it goes back to our Neanderthal ancestors, or something, and that Christian will explain the history. <g>
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That sounds very accurate to me. That's how I organize it in my head when I'm going through what notes to choose even if I start with the full scale.
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Because they are seven note scales, which makes for a logical continuity without gaps. The so-called avoid note can be, and is, used for connectivity. In fact, the term 'avoid note' is a misnomer because there's no need to avoid it. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
As Jimmy pointed out, it's not the note itself that's 'wrong', it's the faulty emphasis of it in a certain place over a chord that doesn't suit it. The F note over a C chord is merely an intermediate sound that can be resolved. It's not an avoid note at all, it's quite a nice sound used properly, i.e. in a plagal cadence. But it sounds wrong when used as a primary melody note.
I'm sure you know all this. In fact, I'm sure we all do. To be honest I feel a bit silly explaining it because it's very beginners' old hat!
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So, lets take a case where it's all white keys. You can argue that the F belongs there (for C tonic-y) for connectivity. Sure, it's useful that way. But, to my way of thinking so are all the black keys. I think the F belongs with them. Others hear it differently. Originally Posted by ragman1
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The question would be more interesting in the case of something like F lydian ... in which case there really isn't any avoid note. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Or D Dorian because I refuse to believe that––even in a world where "avoid notes" are useful concepts––that B should be an avoid note over Dmin7.
Wouldn't those cases where there really isn't an avoid note at all over some chords in the key, be a case for the seven-note scale?
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(though honestly I'm pretty fine with Jimmy and ragman's argument that passing tones are reason enough for all 7)
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A-men brother hallelujah Originally Posted by pamosmusic
(Also there’s counterexamples from core jazz repertoire.)
Op rodolfo said that it only counts for ii chords. I can agree with that, but cannot recall if it actually says this in any books (I have FAR better things to than peruse Berklee cheese manuals, like the laundry. Actually I will go and do that now.
Anyone?)
Hexatonic theory is dogmeat bruvWouldn't those cases where there really isn't an avoid note at all over some chords in the key, be a case for the seven-note scale?
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I heard there's no such thing as a ii chord? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Who said that - was it me? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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F lydian is a very particular sound. To my ear, the note that does it is the B. The C has an impact if you include it. I could hear that either way -- as reasonably consonant (in the way a maj7 chord has a half step, but sounds smooth), or not. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
So, you could argue that thinking 7 notes is advantageous (in a way that straight major and dominant are not, to my way of thinking). It's a good point. If I was going to stay with chord names, it becomes, I guess, Fmaj13#11. OTOH (or am I back on the first hand?) you probably don't want to lean on a C in the melody. Every other note would probably be easier to lean on.
Minors are interesting. If you're thinking Dm7 in the context of ii V I in C, the avoid note (yes, it's a terrible name for a note you don't have to avoid) might be B. Why? because the ii V chord change emphasizes the movement from C in Dm7 to B in G7. So, putting in a B against Dm7 makes the sound more ambiguous. Might be art, but probably not pure vanilla. The 9 will work and the 11 usually does, I think. So you get D E F G A C. Meaning you can think Dm11. Then the C becomes, in effect, a black key. Doesn't help that much since most of us know what iim dorian translates to anyway.
If you're thinking melodic minor harmony, no avoid note per Levine, but I wouldn't call them all equal. I went over that in a prior post.
The So What chord is yet another thing. I was addressing functional harmony, not modal. I just haven't thought it all through for modal situations yet.
So, is the result of this argument to say that scale thinking doesn't work? Not at all. It works. But, you have to include the step of making the connections between the chord names and the scales. If, OTOH, you stick to chord names only, you usually get 6/7ths of the notes, the seventh one is often the avoid note (or however you want to label it) and you don't have to worry about a whole new scale name because you changed a single note -- or you didn't change any notes all, but you decided to place them on the beats differently.
Seems to me like a more than viable alternative.
And thanks for participating in the discussion. Kicking it around helps me sharpen my thinking and is much appreciated.
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For me, you really have to work out the deal with subtleties of handling many different scale tones. It's not just the 4th scale degree over a major chord. What about minor chords where if you want to imply a tonic but the 6 and major 7 make it sound spooky, but the 6 and b7 make it sound subdominant, etc. What 9 do you hit over a half dim chord, b9 or natural 9? What extensions should I hit if I want to bring in some tension? Etc. Most of it takes some care.
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Avoid notes are about preserving tonic, dominant and subdominant functions in chords. Not about tastes and aesthetics.
Last edited by Tal_175; 03-27-2024 at 07:05 PM.
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All good points. Let me start with Bm7b5. It is locrian with respect to Cmaj and therefore takes a b9 (the C note). But, it is also commonly seen as coming from 6th mode Dmelmin, in which case one note changes. The C becomes a C#. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
So, you have your choice. C or C#. If you like, you can think of this as locrian vs 6th mode melodic minor. Or you can just think, b9 or natural 9 and pick the one that will sound better in context.
More generally with minors (not counting phrygian or the more exotic ones) you're picking a 6 and a 7. There are four possible combinations, corresponding to natural, harmonic, melodic and dorian. And, after you know them all thoroughly, you'll still have to pick a 6 and a 7 that sound good for your application. So, you have to think about the harmony of the tune and which sound you want. If you learn them by sound, and you can play what you hear, you're done.
My point is that, for me, the scale/mode names are the long way around to the goal. Chord names get you to the same place, or close, and eliminate a lot of nomenclature.
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Most of these terms are for analysis and arranging.... where you actually make choices. And the details come into to play.
And in the direction of Tal175.... just basic guidelines, avoid notes or some extensions require additional guidelines when using to keep the harmonic organization consistent within the bigger picture. Not just the moment.
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Yeah my point was you have to learn the functions of scale tones other than avoid notes to maintain harmonic organization anyway.
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"scale tones other than avoid notes" is exactly what I'm talking about too. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
And, if you have to make an effort to know which of the 7 scale tones is the avoid note, then you're accepting 6 notes, typically, and raising an eyebrow at the seventh. The Heightened Eyebrow Note.
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Avoid notes are just notes that don't sound good when you play them. I suppose it's best to know that before you play them rather than after
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I accept this terminology and will use it going forward. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Last night I wrote out a very diatonic AABA progression in C and noodled over it a few times without really thinking, just as it came out. Fact is, I never hit a single avoid note. No F's over C, or C's over G7, etc, etc.
There was a B over Dm at one point but I don't consider it an avoid note because it sounded really nice.
Someone explain that. It's just instinct, that's all. It's not showing off, it's just instinct.
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I don't think you have to learn anything, you just need to play something. If it sounds good, that's good enough. Everybody's so frightened of everything! Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
So if you using just single harmonic references for scale references... sometimes your missing what's actually or what can be going on harmonically.
Most jazz players looking at a single chord, (the harmonic reference for scale reference choice, in which the Function or Harmonic references has been determined by an analysis or just from playing and using your ears etc.), Anyway... that chord usually becomes a Chord Pattern....( a series of chords), which then has different guidelines for determining what are chord tones, scales, avoid notes etc. (like subdividing rhythm, only with harmony)
Where I'm going is .... there are more musical concepts usually going on besides simple Maj/Min Functional harmony. Expanding or developing the harmony with simple use of subs, chord patterns, approach chords etc... even Modal and Blue note harmonic organization...
Harmonic Rhythm is not just simple chords etc... There are standard Chord Patterns that use standard jazz rhythmic patterns to expand ... Harmonic Rhythm.... The speed of what's going on.... gets faster.
Simple example can be just using a I VI II V .... at med. tempo over 2 bars. There are so many melodic and harmonic choices to pull from.
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