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There it is. If it does not sound not Phrygian, why call it that? There is not even a reason for this.
Originally Posted by ragman1
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03-18-2024 04:28 AM
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You're missing the point. Who calls a m7 a Phrygian chord? The Phrygian susb9 chord is derived from the m7 but is no longer a m7.
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The thing is even worse when people say: the Phrygian is the major scale from E to E.
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Those at Berklee do not clearly say that it is a Phrygian chord, but when associating the mode with degree III one get confused. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Wrongly or rightly, Modally, I was taught this:
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(From my old notes)
Notice how the note "F" the 2nd note of E Phrygian Mode 3 creates a lot of tension. It's important to remember that the 2nd note of Phrygian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes it's sound.
Hear the tension that a Chord creates when it contains the 2nd note of the scale, note "F".
Notice how the note "F" the 6th note of A Aeolian Mode 6 creates a lot of tension. It's important to remember that the 6th note of Aeolian Mode 6 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes it's sound.
Hear the tension that a Chord creates when it contains the 6th note of the scale, note "F".
Notice how the note "B" the 6th note of D Dorian Mode 2 creates a lot of tension. It's important to remember that the 6th note of Dorian Mode 2 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes it's sound.
Notice how the note "F", the 7th note of G Mixolydian Mode 5, creates a lot of tension. It's important to remember that the 7th note of Mixolydian Mode 5 is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.
Notice how the note "B", the 4th note of F Lydian Mode 4, creates a lot of tension. It's important to remember that the 4th note of Lydian Mode is the mode's character note, which distinguishes this mode's sound.
The Ionian scale is rarely used in modern Modal Harmony, due to it's strong use in Functional Harmony, that's harmony built in thirds with strong cadences pulling towards the tonic chord. (Functional harmony is the basic music theory taught all over the western world.)
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I have also been taught this way. The avoid notes in functional actually are essential tones in modal (check Modal Jazz 1 by Ron Miller) Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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or Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
Pick a lane.On the other hand, a truly modal chord forces you to play only one scale over it. The chord that best represents the Phrygian mode is the sub9 since you ´´can´t´´ play any other scale choice.
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Right, you can argue that sub9 is also found in Messiaen modes, etc. I bet 99% of musicians think of susb9 like phrygian at first.
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Obviously, the more notes the chord has, the fewer options there would be, but what is clear is that a susb9 is not a functional III chord.
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By the way, check Voicing Modes Web App
Noel Johnston is a great player and has great material about modal stuff
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So my understanding is that your point is that “Phrygian Mode” is an unhelpful label for a iii chord in functional tunes.
Ive said already that I would agree with that, more or less.
And as someone who I think agrees with your main thing here, I should say that at this point I don’t really know who you’re arguing with or why.
Like … I’m not sure what’s the point of this whole rigid susb9 thing is. There is only a very narrow set of parameters where that is even illustrative of modal playing. I played Sea Journey the other night, and the E chords are susb9 chords. But I play those like changes … bII major or whatever.
The main bulk of the solo section we just used the Amin vamp which is Aeolian but I don’t just play Aeolian junk over it. There’s freedom to move into different places and push into different modes and change modes rapidly using different means.
Listening to the way people play something like Impressions, for example … arguing about whether that tune is in the Dorian or not is kind of reductive and misses the point.
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I think actually with Sea Journey I might be a little out of line when I say it’s “Aeolian” … context clues would say so, but the chord is Amin(b6) and the main bass riff omits “B” … and the ambiguity is almost certainly intentional
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I don't know what they say. If they actually say the m7 is a Phrygian chord I don't know what it means. The term 'Phrygian chord' is specific and refers to susb9 chords which are neither major or minor. If they mean the iii is the chord in a major scale that takes the Phrygian mode then they're correct. Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
Are you sure you're quoting them correctly? Have you anything in writing?
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In jazz harmony, chords can function pretty much however one wants them to, depending on how one voices them.
Your susb9 chord (Esus7b9: E-A-B-D-F) can function as a Im6/9 chord: D-F-A-B-E (Dm6/9)
Major 13th#11 chord: F-A-E-B-D (FM13#11)
Possibly even as a dominant 13th chord (sans root): (G)-B-D-F-A-E
Jim Hall does this a lot - uses the same chord voicing to serve different harmonic functions.
But this thread needs a little more mythology....
"The Phrygians were without a king, but an oracle at Telmissus (the ancient capital of Lycia) decreed that the next man to enter the city driving an ox-cart should become their king. A peasant farmer named Gordias drove into town on an ox-cart and was immediately declared king."
That is not quite right: the oracle, who was a jazz music lover, actually said that the next musician to enter town on an ox-cart should be declared king. She happened to know that her favorite jazzer (formerly a farmer) had just finished a gig in the next town over and his next stop was the capital of Phrygia. In fact he wrote a tune to commemorate it entitled, "A Night in Phrygia." Dizzy Gillespie adopted it's use of oscillating chord changes for his tune, "A Night in Tunisia."
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Apparently the Phrygian mode of antiquity is the mode the mode we call the Phrygian today iirc. It all got messed up in the Middle Ages.
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You nailed it. I don´t hate the modes and I don't hate Berklee. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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It's just an example. Just as susb9 truly represents the Phrygian, minor 7(13) truly represents the Dorian. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
The minor 7th chord does not represent any of these modes.
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I don't have any reliable proof. This misleading has happened with me and with many I have known (maybe we are not intelligent enough and have misunderstood those at Berklee). What I know is that the tonal system was already established and theorized many years ago and without it being necessary to name the chord degrees with modal names. Originally Posted by ragman1
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I'll explain it to you another way. Knowing that tonal harmony had already been established and theorized for many years, why use modal names when referring to each degree of the scale? What is the advantage? If for centuries it was not needed by thousands of great musicians, why do we need it now? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I would like to hear from you guys your arguments in favor of modal nomeclature in functional harmony, maybe I will change my point of view.
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Functional harmony is kind of made up BS to though tbf
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Can you please explain it? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I've posted decades ago on all this BS.... but
You sound like you understand traditional Functional Harmony.
Modal Functional harmony works with use of the CP (Characteristic pitch(s).
Ionian...Nat.4th
Dorian...Nat. 6th
Phrygian...b2
Lydian... #4th
Mixo...b7th
Aeo...b6th
Locrian...b5
Locrian is complicated...
Function can be controlled with use of CP as Tonic or Dominant, typically dominant.
Maj/min or traditional functional music is organized with Ionian as the reference. We tend to use the term "modal" in traditional functional music as just starting on a different scale degree Ionian.... But still use the Functional organization of Ionian.
This is very basic, like the starting point... There are many more doors, or references for expanding Traditional functional organization. Maj/Min Functional musical organization.
The concepts have expanded and evolved... and still is.
Modal can be ... how notes react to each other and which notes.... control the movement, Have the Power...LOL
Maybe think of it as...modal nomenclature in functional harmony ...with different references for controlling Harmonic Movement.
I use both approaches all the time.... composing, arranging and playing. Like all the time.
Back in the late 60's and early 70's.... Berklee grads and their BS started spreading around the world... and we all have our understandings LOL... anyway we somewhat took over most non traditional Music programs... Generally because we actually played Jazz and developed the terminology after the fact.
Sorry if I didn't answer your ?'s.... Feel free to ask details
Reg
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Basically it’s all invented by Germans in like 1880 or some shit like that. Originally Posted by rodolfoguitarra
Tbf it starts off with JP Rameau who started off the whole sleigh ride by getting excited about this fundamental bass thing. Root notes to us.
The idea didn’t exist before 1730, everyone was building harmony from the bass before then and maybe a little after. JS Bach thought Rameau’s ideas were but nerdy and theoretical and not much use to a practical musician like him lol. Notably Rameau was raised on the old system and composed great music. He only saw the fundamental bass thing as a theoretical idea.
It’s fair to say harmonic theory nonwithstanding, composers continued to study things like counterpoint and figured bass which predated these ideas. If you want to be a legit composer, a bunch of numerals and functions isn’t enough. It’s just what they can teach you at conservatoire in three of four years. That’s why all the Americans went to Paris to study with Boulanger.
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