Functional Tonal vs Modal Harmony and Berklee greek names

[Christian Miller]

but why you people think I cant improvise over a jazz standard? I mean its not the thing I like to do the most, but is possible.

I don’t know if you can or not. There’s a difference obviously between being able to do it and being able to do it to a high level. It all depends what your priorities and interests are. I’ve met highly trained composers who write incredible complex orchestral scores and yet are embarrassingly bad at jazz. It all depends.

Can’t do it all!


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[Tal_175]

I dont know whats your point. Its not that I dont know harmony, else i couldnt harmonize the music I made. I can harmonize things very easy and normally fast, not even using a guitar, just with the score. My knowledge of harmony is different to other approaches, I just use my ears, I dont know formulas or technical stuff, but finally you reach the same point and target, which is to harmonize the melodies I make. I just dont know "formal" harmony but at the end I get the same results just by ear.
Btw is not that I dont want to study harmony, its just I cant do it right now, so I just use my ears, what else can I do? somehow it works.

I think you ignored large part of what I said.

Yes, finding A way to harmonize a melody is not hard. That's what singer songwriters do (some better than others). In fact, must non musicians are good at whistling a harmonized line in realtime. I could harmonize melodies on piano as a kid without knowing any music. It's intrinsic to us. Any listener instantly knows if harmonization works or not. Exploring different reharmonizations of melodies is in itself an interesting subject also but perhaps more advanced. But none of these are what these threads are about.

When I talk about harmony, I'm interested in pragmatic applications of theory that I can use to inform my practice routine. Apparently some of it sounds like mumbo jumbo to some but I at least in my head they provide possible solutions to challenges I encounter in tunes. They provide, repeatable, systematic ways with which I can internalize different situations and explore ideas that allow me to hopefully transcend them. Again if you are not putting yourself in the shoes improvising jazz musician, I don't think you can have good insights into this process.

[Christian Miller]

Man how could I did this If I dont know harmony? By magic? I found the chords?

or this

Stream Op6d by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Its just that I use my ears and it implies harmony knowledge, different to the traditional approach maybe but it includes harmonic knowledge for sure.

Yeah so i can hear right away from the point of view of what you seem to be trying to do - write 19th century style music - that you would benefit from study of chorale harmony, counterpoint etc. I can hear odd parallels in the part writing


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[Tal_175]

It is true that we don't talk about melody as much as harmony. But that's true for the whole (western) music literature. I guess there is a good reason for it. Melody is more complex than harmony. What can be formally characterized in the domain of melody (ornamentation, patterns, linear harmony etc) is only a very small part of the overall effect.

I'm all ears if anyone has good insights into a good melody that they can discuss on the forum.

[JimmyDunlop]

I think you ignored large part of what I said.

Yes, finding a way to harmonize a melody is not hard. That's what singer songwriters do (some better than others). In fact, must non musicians are good at whistling a harmonized line in realtime. I could harmonize melodies on piano as a kid without knowing any music. It's intrinsic to us. Any listener instantly knows if harmonization works or not. Exploring different reharmonizations of melodies is in itself an interesting subject also but perhaps more advanced. But none of these are what these threads are about.

When I talk about harmony, I'm interested in pragmatic applications of theory that I can use to inform my practice routine. Apparently some of it sounds like mumbo jumbo to some but I at least in my head they provide possible solutions to challenges I encounter in tunes. They provide, repeatable, systematic ways with which I can internalize different situations and explore ideas that allow me to hopefully transcend them. Again if you are not putting yourself in the shoes improvising jazz musician, I don't think you can have good insights into this process.

can you show me your playing just to get an idea of you? And no I dont think that to harmonize is as easy as you think, I doubt if you give some melodies to random people they will harmonize them (and way less fluently and fast). Not even if they are very simple.

[JimmyDunlop]

Yeah so i can hear right away from the point of view of what you seem to be trying to do - write 19th century style music - that you would benefit from study of chorale harmony, counterpoint etc. I can hear odd parallels in the part writing


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what do you mean why odd parallels?

[pamosmusic]

Man how could I did this If I dont know harmony? By magic? I found the chords?

or this

Stream Op6d by Jimmy Dunlop | Listen online for free on SoundCloud

Its just that I use my ears and it implies harmony knowledge, different to the traditional approach maybe but it includes harmonic knowledge for sure.

I don’t want to be rude, but I don’t really love this. I don’t dislike it but I don’t particularly love it either.

Which is fine.

So I’m glad you’re arriving at a result you like, but other approaches are good too.

For what it’s worth, when I’m writing music, I ALWAYS come up with the melody (or maybe a bassline) first and chords come later. This is a both-and thing, not an either-or.

[Tal_175]

can you show me your playing just to get an idea of you? And no I dont think that to harmonize is as easy as you think, I doubt if you give some melodies to random people they will harmonize them (and way less fluently and fast). Not even if they are very simple.

Yeah, this isn't really a pissing contest. I'm just saying that simple harmonization is simple. Nothing wrong with it. That's just what it is. But feel free to post some of your jazz improvisation too since you are the one who claims that everyone else is a fake guru except you, right?

[pamosmusic]

what do you mean why odd parallels?

That would require some theory.

But it’s when you have intervals that move the same distance in the same direction. It makes the voices sound less independent.

A listener will usually experience this as an odd disruption of the texture. The theory helps the composer to recognize places where this disruption is likely to occur so that they’re better able to use it or avoid it as necessary.

[Tal_175]

what do you mean why odd parallels?

Elementary counterpoint.

[JimmyDunlop]

Sorry but I cant really take that serious random opinion guys about this music, when is obsiously that these guys cant make something similar and has not the skills. Thats why I asked about this composition to a Cambridge scholar and phd professor. He didnt had to answer, why would he answer me? if he didnt like it, the easiest thing would have been to ignore my email.
he said:

"it reminds me more of Elgar's 'Pomp and Curcumstance' marches than anything else--which might be descibed as a late nineteenth-century orchestral vocabulary used in a distinctive manner. And the semi-autonomous movement of the bass line about half way through is rather Elgarian too. As far as I can tell from the Sibelius sound, the orchestration works okay but it would be nice to have more variation in the sense of wind instruments having a more independent role--but then marches do tend to be in tutti style domainted by the stings. Does that help at all? All best wishes, Nick

I obviously would place this opinion from a realexpert way above random people . You can like it or not, I dont expect random people to like it tbh. I care more about scholars or people with proven musical taste, like this man or Grisha Goryachev (one of the best guitar players in the world), who welcomed my compositions. That a scholar relates your work to probably the best English composer of all time, well its not bad I guess.

[pamosmusic]

Sorry but I cant really take that serious random opinion guys about this music, when is obsiously that these guys cant make something similar and has not the skills. Thats why I asked about this composition to a Cambridge scholar and phd professor. He didnt had to answer, why would he answer me? if he didnt like it, the easiest thing would have been to ignore my email.
he said:

"it reminds me more of Elgar's 'Pomp and Curcumstance' marches than anything else--which might be descibed as a late nineteenth-century orchestral vocabulary used in a distinctive manner. And the semi-autonomous movement of the bass line about half way through is rather Elgarian too. As far as I can tell from the Sibelius sound, the orchestration works okay but it would be nice to have more variation in the sense of wind instruments having a more independent role--but then marches do tend to be in tutti style domainted by the stings. Does that help at all? All best wishes, Nick

I obviously would place this opinion from a realexpert way above random people . You can like it or not, I dont expect random people to like it tbh. I care more about scholars or people with proven musical taste, like this man or Grisha Goryachev (one of the best guitar players in the world), who welcomed my compositions. That a scholar relates your work to probably the best English composer of all time, well its not bad I guess.

Ah see this is the disconnect. Jazz is a popular music. We like the random people and want them to like us back.

[Tal_175]

Sorry but I cant really take that serious random opinion guys about this music, when is obsiously that these guys cant make something similar and has not the skills. Thats why I asked about this composition to a Cambridge scholar and phd professor. He didnt had to answer, why would he answer me? if he didnt like it, the easiest thing would have been to ignore my email.
he said:

"it reminds me more of Elgar's 'Pomp and Curcumstance' marches than anything else--which might be descibed as a late nineteenth-century orchestral vocabulary used in a distinctive manner. And the semi-autonomous movement of the bass line about half way through is rather Elgarian too. As far as I can tell from the Sibelius sound, the orchestration works okay but it would be nice to have more variation in the sense of wind instruments having a more independent role--but then marches do tend to be in tutti style domainted by the stings. Does that help at all? All best wishes, Nick

I obviously would place this opinion from a realexpert way above random people . You can like it or not, I dont expect random people to like it tbh. I care more about scholars or people with proven musical taste, like this man or Grisha Goryachev (one of the best guitar players in the world), who welcomed my compositions. That a scholar relates your work to probably the best English composer of all time, well its not bad I guess.

It sounds to me like he is basically saying the same thing in a more classical literate way.

[JimmyDunlop]

It sounds to me like he is basically saying the same thing in a more classical literate way.

he is approving it. as i said he could just ignore my email lol, why a cambridge professor scholar would have waste his time on listening and commenting this...if it wasnt nice to him he would have ignored me...

[James W]

he is approving it. as i said he could just ignore my email lol, why a cambridge professor scholar would have waste his time on listening and commenting this...if it wasnt nice to him he would have ignored me...

Sounds like he was saying your compositions sound like pastiche. Which they do. In academia your compositions would have to demonstrate more awareness of contemporary music.

[JimmyDunlop]

Sounds like he was saying your compositions sound like pastiche. Which they do. In academia your compositions would have to demonstrate more awareness of contemporary music.

no he didnt say that. thats a free interpretation from you. from being related to one style and to be a pastiche there is a world. anyays I wouldnt mind to be a pastiche from elgar, it puts me in a good place lol

[pamosmusic]

It’s funny how people who complain about how tired and unhelpful it is to talk about theory almost invariably turn threads into conversations about themselves, their own playing, and their own idiosyncratic approaches.

[pamosmusic]

I never thought I’d say this, but Sweet Jesus can we please talk about modes again?

[JimmyDunlop]

I never thought I’d say this, but Sweet Jesus can we please talk about modes again?

yes, lest talk about modes again. I am not replying anymore messages about the compos I made, this web forum is not the place for that, i just posted to prove I am not a completely uneducated who criticize others without reason.

I never liked the mode approach theory and yes I find it confusing, so I agree with the OP in that.

[pamosmusic]

yes, lest talk about modes again. I am not replying anymore messages about the compos I made, this web forum is not the place for that, i just posted to prove I am not a completely uneducated who criticize others without reason.

I never liked the mode approach theory and yes I find it confusing, so I agree with the OP in that.

My recommendation would be to avoid posting a dozen examples of your compositions when you’re not looking for comments.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, this isn't really a pissing contest. I'm just saying that simple harmonization is simple. Nothing wrong with it. That's just what it is. But feel free to post some of your jazz improvisation too since you are the one who claims that everyone else is a fake guru except you, right?

Apparently it is a pissing contest, if that contest is writing symphonic marches on Sibelius.

idk I don’t really have a dog in this fight lol

I think JD would do well to get some lessons if he’s serious about developing his craft. But, you know, writing is the main thing. Well done JD! Right, back to modes.

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[Christian Miller]

My recommendation would be to avoid posting a dozen examples of your compositions when you’re not looking for comments.

Look upon my works ye mighty, and despair


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[frabarmus]

To sum up this thread, may I suggest a (pissing) contest?
Let us all write a modal march.
Locrian.

[GuyBoden]

Phrygian Natural 3.

Ron Miller's Sunchild.

Music Starts at 1.05min

[Jimmy Smith]

So are you guys tired of arguing and resolving the discussion? I apparently got here late after the thread expanded 3 pages and was about to tell JD what's what about there's no method for melody, you don't need harmony, and everyone's a fake guru except him lol.

oh, the irony

What irony? I don't think I am smarter than I am or play better than my level.