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I'm new to jazz chords & I'm only studying shell voicings at the moment. I've come across something that's confusing me & I'm hoping someone can help clear this up for me. Keep in mind that as I'm learning these shapes, I'm also trying to learn what each note is inside the shape. It helps me understand why the chord is named what it is.
Here is the chord in question...x312xx...When I see that, I see a "C" as the root, an "Eb" as a flat 3rd, and an "A" as a 6. To me, that is a Cm6.
The problem is, I have come across others saying this is a diminished shape. From what little I know, this looks like a m6 shape to me.
What am I not seeing?
Thanks
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03-02-2024 02:31 AM
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The short answer is that both interpretations can be correct. Read on for details.
Chord symbols are just shorthand or nicknames for common chord constructions.
A C minor triad is C Eb G. The intervals from the root are a minor third and a perfect fifth
A C minor sixth is C Eb G A. It's a C minor triad with a major sixth. The intervals from the root are minor third, perfect fifth and major sixth.
An Ab major chord in first inversion is C Eb Ab. The intervals from the bottom note (not the root, since this is an inversion) are minor 3rd and minor 6th. If we have C Eb G Ab, we have a first-inversion Abma7, which you might see notated as Ama7/C.
So... in order for the add-a-sixth-to-the-chord shorthand to be consistent, the convention is that when adding a sixth to a minor triad the sixth is major, because if it were a minor sixth you'd have a first-inversion major chord. (And when adding a sixth to a major triad, that's also a major sixth*. Thus C6 is C E G A which is the same as Am7/C.)
In practice, if you omit the G from C Eb G A the listener may still hear Cm6, or they may hear A diminished. It depends on context. Shell voicings are all about context: you are playing a partial chord, and the rest of the band is filling in that context.
An A diminished triad is A C Eb. If we extend that A diminished triad by adding a diminished seventh (the interval that is one half-step smaller than m7) to get an A full diminished 7 we get A C Eb Gb... which is the same chord as C full diminished (C Eb Gb Bbb), Eb full diminished (Eb Gb Bbb Dbb) and Gb full diminished (Gb Bbb Dbb Fbb). They are all stacks of minor thirds.
Thus, the diminished sonority can be thought of as one chord spelled four ways - or four chords that are actually the same chord :-) which means that we can move the diminished sonority up or down by minor thirds and it will still function the same way. Consider that you could look at C Eb Gb as an A full diminished 7th with the root omitted. Or Eb Gb Bbb as A full diminished 7th with the third omitted. Or Gb Bbb Dbb as A full diminished 7th with the fifth omitted. So we can treat diminished triads as equivalent to each other as well. C dim == Eb dim == Gb dim == Adim.
HTH
SJ
* For the sake of completeness, while not wanting to go too far down a rabbit hole, if you add a minor sixth to a C major chord you get C E G Ab, which is Ab+ma7 in first inversion aka Ab+ma7/C. There aren't any special conventions when it comes to augmented chords because there is no ambiguity wrt adding sixths: the aug 5 and the m6 are enharmonic, so if you see C+6 the sixth HAS to be a major 6th.Last edited by starjasmine; 03-02-2024 at 06:49 AM.
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Good question. It can be either depending on context. Listen for the sound, that's the clue.
Originally Posted by J.C.
Try this :
8x99xx - 8x79xx - x879xx - x867xx
x757xx - x645xx - x535xx - 3x34xx
That's:
CM7 - C7 - FM7 - Fm6
Em7 - Ebo - Dm7 - G7
You can hear the distinct difference between the Fm6 and the Ebo even though they're the same shape.
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This isn’t what the OP is referring to. You’re playing a min 6 without the fifth and a dim 7 without the fifth. They’re not the same chord … the voicings just happen to be the same because you’ve dropped the fifth. If the fifth were in them, then they would be different. Originally Posted by ragman1
Hes referring to min 6 and min7b5
So that would be F Ab C D and D Ab F C … literally the same notes
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Or this one:
3x44xx - 5x55xx/6x56xx - 7x77 - 7x67xx
5x55xx - 4x45xx - 3x44xx - %
That's GM7 - Am7/A#o - Bm7 - Bm6
Am7 - Ab7 - GM7 - %
The A#o is a passing chord and the Bm6 could be thought of as an E7/B (E7 over bass B). Same shape, different function.
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You might confuse the OP who's just struggling with shapes but you won't confuse me. Away with your college bullshit! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
(Dear OP, he's not wrong, just unnecessary in this context. And he knows it).
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Guys, don’t scare off the new guy with your arguing.
OP, sometimes the same grip can be used for different chords. Especially if your only planning 2 or 3 of the notes i
of a larger chord.
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Actually I am wrong. Originally Posted by ragman1
Misread.
For the record. Not college bullshit. Just wrong. The college bullshit would at least be correct.
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Little boy asks his daddy: 'Daddy, why is the sky blue?'
And daddy says:
'Well, son, as white light passes through our atmosphere, tiny air molecules cause it to ‘scatter’. The scattering caused by these tiny air molecules (known as Rayleigh scattering) increases as the wavelength of light decreases.
Violet and blue light have the shortest wavelengths and red light has the longest. Therefore, blue light is scattered more than red light and the sky appears blue during the day.
When the Sun is low in the sky during sunrise and sunset, the light has to travel further through the Earth’s atmosphere. We don’t see the blue light because it gets scattered away, but the red light isn’t scattered very much – so the sky appears red.'
Attachment 109307Last edited by ragman1; 03-02-2024 at 03:39 PM.
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It does shut down those annoying 'why?' questions though to be fair. Although my daughter starts asking questions like 'daddy, what's Rayleigh scattering?' So maybe it's not such a good strategy. At these rate she'll start learning physics, and we all know what a disaster that is. Originally Posted by ragman1
Trying to explain why grass is transparent. That's a toughy.
Kids ask excellent questions their parents don't think of....
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Anyway OP question is relatively easy.
Three note voicings of a four note chords like o7 or m6 have to miss out a note.
The most common note to omit is the 5th
If you skip out the 5th the m6 and o7 chord has the same notes in - 1 b3 and 6.
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Ah yes. As adults we tend to forget that kids don’t dismiss new information as “college bullshit.” Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Though it’d be fun if they did.
“Hey buddy why don’t you try your spinach … it’s a little bit like lettuce.”
”Get out of here with that college bullshit.”
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Look, if I don't know it, it can scarcely be worth knowing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Actually it's crazy the number of people who think this way.
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Dear OP, he thinks your question is annoying. Welcome to JGO Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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ahem … welcome to JGO? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Rag, stop being a berk. Originally Posted by ragman1
Dear OP, he thinks your question is annoying. Welcome to JGO
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When the insults start you know you've got it right :-)
As a matter of fact, I've never asked a theory question here, ever, because I know what happens. As above. I go away and look it up and work it out myself.
There are those who think theoretical questions are an answer to playing difficulties. They're not. Playing difficulties need to be answered with practical answers that clarify the playing.
It's not that the theoretical answers are wrong, it's that accepting a theoretical answer leaves you in the theoretical realm and you're still basically where you were before in practical terms.
And you'd be amazed at the number of people who do just accept such answers, usually with gushing gratitude and thanks. And then they reappear later asking the same question again because they haven't really understood it at all...
It's a fact.
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Alternatively, it might be the case that you are being a berk.
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Also, I feel insults are usually essentialist.
Whereas, I feel berk here is being used as a descriptor of behaviour.
Note: I say you are being a berk not that 'you are a berk.' Although a berk would obviously be more prone to exhibitions of berkishness in general, we all have within the capacity to be berks. And I feel it's important to flag up berkishness where it occurs so that remedial action can be undertaken.
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I know, it's a witch-hunt and politically motivated :-)
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Alternatively, it may be because you are in fact, being a bit of a berk. Originally Posted by ragman1
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This is all I needed. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Thanks to all that replied.
Later
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Thats very kind of you, but I’m well aware that I was unhelpful on this one. Originally Posted by J.C.
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OK, I got it...no more beginner theory questions.
I just found this site that will analize any chord I put in. Guitar Chord Analyzer (Chord Namer/Identifier)
I should have done that first.
Again, thanks to all who helped with my question.
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Please don’t listen to Ragman. Ask whatever you want. Originally Posted by J.C.
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