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Aside from Stairway to Heaven, I associate this chord in a post-bop or fusion context -how does it fit with playing standards in a bebop style, particularly under a Barry Harris framework?
Also we (I) tend think of this as a modern sound, but the chord was widely used in the baroque, even with the 9th added:
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02-28-2024 03:48 PM
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One place it'd arise in BH framework is Maj6dim scale chords. It's a Maj6 chord with two notes borrowed from the diminished of the scale.
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Just in general terms it’s one of the more colorful arpeggios from the melodic minor so it can be a Swiss Army knife for all those melodic minor sounds we like. Basically any sound using C melodic minor can use that Eb+maj7 to get some pretty extensions.
Originally Posted by BWV
I think that’s because it contains the Eb and B both so it will end up getting whatever note in whatever chord makes it sound “melodic minor-y” since those are the two notes that distinguish it from the major sound on the one hand and the Dorian on the other
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Yeah that’s a nice video Originally Posted by BWV
In the baroque context if you wanted to look at this chord f*nct**n*lly it’s essentially a V chord over a dissonant bass. You resolve it to the I chord per the same bass so it might appear in this type of context
Am E/B E/C Am/C Dm6 Am/E Esus4 E Am
E/C = Cmaj7#5
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
so something like x3x454 - x3x555 - x5455x - 3x243x , sticking the chord in front of a ii-V-I seems something that would work in a GASB tune without sound too far out
x3x454 - x3x555 - x3x232 - x2x033 has a nice baroque sound
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In the Hummel example it’s used as a secondary dominant (V/ii) in the key of G
G G7/B E7/B E7/C Am Am7 etc
This raises the possibility of using the chord as a sort of IV chord predominant type thing
Cmaj7#5 C6 D7 G (and variations) which iirc was the Schumann example?
Obviously we can see that this relates to Barry’s maj6-dim as Tal notes. This is the sort of thing that makes me think of Romantic roots in Barry’s harmonic sense.
So what’s interesting is how Michael talks about the importance of the spacing. There are a few chords in basic common practice harmony that seem to me to have a dual colouristic/functional role. Here that ‘melodic minor jazz fruitiness’ is heard imo in addition to the function and grammar. That’s presumably why Michael wants the spacing to be a certain way. It will resolve in c18 and c19 music - but let’s enjoy it a moment…
Another is the third inversion dominant.
Now in jazz/pop world we think of D/C as being a Lydian chord and that’s… also true to my ears in baroque music. It’s also a dominant and most often resolves to G/B or perhaps Bm7.
But when we hear it Joni’s Just Like this Train, ABBA’s Waterloo or the second chord of You Are the Sunshine of my Life we hear the colour as well as the function, and this is also true of the C major WTC prelude for example. Gabriel Faure made a play of this in his song ‘Lydia.’ (It’s also a deadly way to modulate to the dominant via what we may call ionian/lydian modal interchange if we are Bad People.)
Remember the baroque guys didn’t know what a third inversion dominant was. They wrote the chord 6 #4 2 from the bass.
It has more of that lydian vibe to me spaced
x 3 x 2 3 2 than 3 4 2 3 x. Same thing with the maj7#5
The same is true of these maj7#5 chords imo. Where grammar and colour cross.
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Iris has a M7#5 in it. Nice tune.
Attachment 109231
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The guy in that Baroque vid sounds like Dr. Strangelove
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Idk about using it as a chord in traditional bop styles, but you certainly use it as an arpeggio like Pamos was saying. I frequently use that sound by playing a dom7 arpeggio from the 3rd of a I chord, which gives 3, #5, 7, and 9. You can fill in between with the melodic minor modes (lydian augmented from the root/mixolydian flat 6 from the 3rd). It's one of my favorite colors, kind of floats between outside and inside over a standard I chord, especially if you use chromatic approach notes to land on inside notes on strong beats.
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I actually just found this arpeggio in an Oscar Peterson solo. Over a C7 chord he plays E+M7.
Might be a C#mM9 but puh-tay-toe puh-tah-toe
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BWV! The people on the jazz forum keep talking about jazz!
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zee sharp five ist zee flouride vee have snuck into zee drinking water Originally Posted by ragman1
The guy in that Baroque vid sounds like Dr. Strangelove
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LOL, well that was the OP, which could have been phrased better, figured if the M7#5 works in Baroque music it would work on standards without trying to sound like Bill Evans or Wayne Shorter. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Also Michael did not post an example of the chord in a chromatic lamento, ala Stairway, I am sure there is a baroque precedent somewhere
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to me the melodic minor is the most versatile scale to experiment with..
it covers major..minor..dominant..diminished and augmented flavors with some Asian pent scale tones to keep your fingers awake
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sure, but that is a more modern CST approach, right? Bach or Charlie Parker would not have thought about a M7#5 that way? When standards in minor go to III don’t think the composers or the melody were contemplating the #5/raised 7th Originally Posted by wolflen
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Yes of course Originally Posted by BWV
Actually accented dissonances have kind of become a bit of an obsession. A classic is playing a Idim7 or VII/I into the I chord. The Vmaj7#5 sound someone referenced above is basically the same thing over a V bass.
IMaj7#5 will resolve conventionally to I6
You reverse the strong/weak pattern of consonant/dissonant (from species counterpoint, walking basslines etc). It’s analogous to what you might do in baroque counterpoint in a suspension chain.
A good melodic example of this reversal is more or less all of Stella. Look at the way the notes on the beat are what classical people would call non chord tones (dissonant by definition) resolving by step very late in the bar. This is late romantic/post romantic harmony as defined by Wagner, Strauss, Mahler etc. we enjoy the dissonances as colours but they are still dissonances.
Jazz people see those as extended colours btw NOT dissonances, except for the 4-3s. I find that difference in the way the harmony is heard very interesting and absolutely key to understanding what makes jazz harmony distinct.
As far as the Stairway lamento goes (I guess that’s an official schema now haha), no idea. Quite possibly! I think maybe in romantic music?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 03-01-2024 at 06:54 AM.
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Wynton Kelly on Freddie Freeloader iirc Originally Posted by pamosmusic
It’s a classic minor key sound. Drops out of the harmonic minor/melodic minor complex.
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