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On which tunes did they play the genuine Lydian mode on the "Kind Of Blue" album? Or did they? Could the often-claimed George Russell Lydian Chromatic Theory "influence" on Miles Davis be a marketing tactic to promote sales of Russell's book? Did Ravel and Debussy, with their modern modal usage, perhaps have a bigger influence on Bill Evans and Miles Davis than George Russell?
Last edited by rintincop; 02-25-2024 at 11:10 PM.
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02-25-2024 10:54 PM
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So What is Dorian. Freddie Freeloader and All Blues are blues, meaning, non modal, not mixolydian at least.
There might be Lydian lines in the solos… I dunno. This kind of music theory analysis isn’t my focus.
My band doesn’t play the other two, so I can’t say.
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The Lydian Chromatic thing is mostly nonsense. Instead of playing D dorian, he’d say to use F lydian. It’s the same notes! Whooptie-doo!
Originally Posted by rintincop
Your ear should be guiding you in terms of what notes to emphasize. Your goal should be to use all 12 notes melodically over any given vertical structure.
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F lydian is a much better choice over Dm11 than D dorian
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The LCC largely predates modern chord scale theory. Some see it as the direct ancestor. I’m not so sure. But it does frame things in what seems to us like a slightly backwards way. Originally Posted by jsaras
The modes in use compositionally on Kind of Blue are the traditional ‘church’ modes (that’s a can of worms lol) so I don’t see why it would have to have anything to do with LCC. I remember Miles mentioning Ravel.
But that’s neither here nor there really, the question is - did it?
George Russell was not shy of a bit of promo haha.
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Is that because F Lydian contains the notes A B C D E F G whereas D Dorian only contains the notes A B C D E F G? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Bill Evans had worked with Russell before working with Miles. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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The Lydian Chromatic theory isn't about just using the Lydian scale for everything. It was a way of looking at the organisation of notes. It constructs a scale by stacking perfect 5ths, so C -> G -> D -> A -> E -> B -> F# which becomes C D E F# G A B, i.e. the Lydian mode. The Lydian mode should be the basis of harmony, not the Ionian mode.
It was developed in the 50s, and it affected a lot of people then. It was a new way of thinking about scales that wasn't bebop running changes. In the present day it doesn't seem as revolutionary. But at the time it led people into thinking modally. The tunes on Kind of Blue were all designed to explore a different mode. I think it's Flamenco Sketches that moves through a series of 5 modes. I'm not sure if the Lydian mode is ever explicitly used.
Today it seems like alot to do about nothing, but modal thinking is pretty ingrained today. The pop tunes of the 30s,40s, 50s have tons of harmonic movement. The pop tunes of today have much more simple chord movement, if there is any movement at all.
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It's kind of an emphasis thing... Originally Posted by Banksia
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Like everything else in music theory, it's an attempt to verbally explain what is ultimately unexplainable verbally.
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Blue in Green has a Bbmaj7#11, so BOOM! Lydian!
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It was a concept..an obscure one at that..
In reading about it from various interviews with active musicians and GR..he did not use the LC on his own compositions - this is what I came
away with after a fair amount of reading.
I read,,was it used on the tunes on Kind of Blue..consider who played on those tunes..did they make space for it..
"..OK bar 35 LCC then E diminished then back to the head.."
If it was used to any extent..its notice was in passing.
If it was used in the composition of any tune on the album..it would have been known by
the many musicians who played and studied each tune and the many who wrote and analyzed each tune in depth
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Took me awhile to get past the Dorian thing to see what I was missing. I think in Dorian on the fret board because Santana, prog rock, Allman Bros. Hard to argue with all that muscle memory built up over the years. And it's just.. notes.
However, it's not the notes.. it's how you use them. Lydian has a sound. Open. Grandiose. Heroic even.
If the underlying harmonic content supports it, makes for a very cool and thematic sort of solo. But you can't just play Dorian to get the impact of Lydian.
(side note: are mode names capitalized?)
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I kinda like Lydian #9 there tho Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Blue in Green has a Bbmaj7#11, so BOOM! Lydian!
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They are proper nouns, so yes. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Someone said Blue In Green has a Bb major seventh chord with E in the lead? Then how come the bass player plays a G on beat one in the first measure of every chorus of the tune. To my ears I hear a Gmi13 harmony in the first bar of every chorus.
Last edited by rintincop; 02-27-2024 at 03:21 AM.
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My understanding is that Mike Moreno turns into The Hulk every time someone calls it a Bbmaj7. Originally Posted by rintincop
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The first chord is Gm13?
I assumed Jeff was talking about the Bbmaj7#11 later in the tune
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It must be quite exhausting being Mike Moreno. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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going by harmonic series you get Lydian dominant, going by fifths you get Lydian. Which one is more natural? Combine them and you get Bebop dominant. I struggle with major seventh all the time and my ear likes b7 better more often.
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Originally Posted by medblues
That's because we should use 6th chords instead of M7ths as the vanilla tonic chord. Home should be peaceful, not tense.
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Definitely depends on the tune. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
This discussion might belong in the “play the tune or play the changes” thread, but sometimes the vibe is very major 7 … Misty, Getting Sentimental Over You, etc. The melody tells you major 7 in those cases, but maybe even something like Accustomed to Her Face.
For me the difference isn’t the tension, but that ambiguous minor quality in the top part of the major 7 when you have the root in the bass. The vibe is more melancholy on the major 7. It’s more unambiguously major in the major 6
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I would imagine so. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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m6 is well tense
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Yeah the melody ‘tis the thing. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Otoh if you are soloing up to you really.
In Barry World the 6th on the 5th is the way we tend to frame those more major 7/major 9 sounds. Which is, say G6 (Em7) on C. They do exist.. but they are separate and distinct
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