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This is one of those questions I should have asked years ago.
In playing big band charts (Nestico, Goodwin, whoever) there are often some single notes written for the guitar.
Mel Bay writes middle C below the staff and taught that you play that note on the A string third fret.
But, on the piano, that note is actually an octave below middle C.
Mel's solution is fine, because if he did it like the piano, he'd have to use a zillion ledger lines or a bass clef for all the notes below B string first fretI've seen it a few times - I think Johnny Smith did it that way.
Now, for the question. When I see a chart where the notes are in the range of the guitar whether I play them Mel's way or the piano way -- which octave should I assume the arranger wanted?
Sometimes, you can't transpose an octave up because it will go out of the range of the guitar. That situation is clear enough. But what if either octave can work?
In practice, I've never really known, so I pick one and nobody has ever complained. But, is there a right answer? Or do you simply have no way of knowing what the arranger assumed?
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02-23-2024 03:37 PM
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I have always assumed they are writing for guitar and I observe the transposition, same as a trumpet or a sax would do.
If it seems like it should be played on the staff where it sounds, that decision should be up to the director of the band.
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I'm stumbling over the language here.
Originally Posted by enalnitram
So, if you see a C on the third space of the staff, is that B string first fret or E string 8th fret?
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Octaves.
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worthless comment Originally Posted by pcjazz
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I would use the Mel Bay C, which is the middle C on guitar. Guitar is a transposition instrument just like sax or trumpet, we are an octave below. Now, does the band leader or composer know that?
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No, it is a useful comment. Playing acoustically with minimum reinforcement in a big band I will often play those single lines in octaves. Otherwise they won’t be heard so may as well not play them at all, which is another option. I have been playing big band guitar three or four times a week for more than 40 years. Maybe you should wait until you have a bit more experience before pontificating rudely. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Thanks for that. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Right. Has the arranger written it expecting you to transpose?
Sometimes, clearly not, because there's a note three ledger lines above the staff and you can't transpose it on a 22 fret instrument. That's the first thing I look for, because it indicates which octave to play in (i.e. the one that's playable). In that situation, it's Mel Bay
Just to complicate things, often the Guitar chart has "guitar" penciled in and the original, printed word "piano" crossed out. Maybe there's also a piano in the band, but maybe not. Seems to me that transposing would be strongly indicated. Not Mel Bay.
I can't recall ever seeing a direction to the guitarist about whether the chart assumes Mel Bay or piano octave. I don't even know how it would be written.
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When I see a middle c on the treble clef on the first leger line below the staff/stave I play 3rd fret 5th string.
The guitar pitch is actually one octave below that which is written.
When I read a band part I do the same assuming the arranger is aware of this fact.
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I think octaves would sound great, although the line would have to be pretty easy for me to execute them. Originally Posted by pcjazz
But, don't you end up with a similar problem? If the note is a D, you can play an octave starting on A string 5th fret, or G string 7th fret. How do you decide? Or stated another way, is there some way to tell which one the arranger had in mind? Or do you just assume Mel Bay and add an octave-up?
I play Don Piestrup charts -- and he occasionally wrote in the octaves.My solution is to try to stay in what I think of as a sweeter spot for octaves, like somewhere between A string 5th fret and high E string 12th fret. If that's possible.
Thanks in advance for your help with this.
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I think you are right about the sweet spot for octaves. I might play that D on the sixth string 10th fret and fourth string 12th fret depending on whether the next note is higher or lower. My Stromberg is non-cut so I will rarely go above the 12th fret, generally try to stay around the middle of the fretboard. And it’s important to stay out of the way of the bass Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Often these lines are in unison with horns, sometimes piano, so you have to listen to what they are playing, and that is often a reason to follow Jim Hall’s advice: don’t just play something, sit there! Otherwise octaves played in the midrange of the guitar will sound right without worrying too much about where the arranger thought he/she pitched the line.
All this pertains to big band swing/bop. It may not work at all in other settings or genres. And it should go without saying that you have to use your ears,
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Originally Posted by pcjazz
See, with context it's a useful comment. But a single word, not useful.
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I guess it makes sense to assume it's Mel Bay, meaning one ledger line down is fifth string third fret.
Otherwise, we'd be seeing a lot more ledger lines if there was a low note.
OTOH, when you start getting down to the fifth string lower frets, it may sound better 8va, depending on the music. Not Duane Eddy.
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Of course, octave below is not Mel's invention. That's how I was taught to read classical, and other books like Leavitt do it that way too.
If it's a guitar part you give the arranger the benefit of the doubt and assume he knows how to write for guitar. Unless the boss says otherwise. In that case you might might want to let him know that's how guitar works, if you're feeling plucky.
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I think we’re just using OPs terminology. With the understanding it’s not actually called Mel Bay C.
Just like it’s concert middle C not piano middle C.
Sometimes it’s best to adapt to the students level to help them.
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I introduced that term (Mel Bay to mean the C one ledger line below the staff is A string third fret) because other terms can be confusing. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
The phrase "sounds an octave lower than written" is one you see quite often. I find it confusing. So I made up my own term for it.
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Middle C (on the piano)
Come to think of it, the double bass does the same thing, but using the bass clef. If someone writing out a chart can get the bass right, he should be able to get the guitar right, too.
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If you learned from Mel Bay, that note is B string second fret -- which is middle C on piano. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Middle C (on the piano)
Come to think of it, the double bass does the same thing, but using the bass clef. If someone writing out a chart can get the bass right, he should be able to get the guitar right, too.
But, if you show that to a pianist, he'll play it an octave higher than that. He'll play the note at high E string, 8th fret.
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Yeah, that's clear enough. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
But TBH, I find that guitar as a transposing instrument at the octave to be surprisingly confusing. Taking a Bb instrument part, say, and remembering to take it down is not so bad.
No, not a great sight-reader at guitar, but when transcribing and .... eh, it takes me a few moments to remember that C4 (middle C) is the first fret on the B-string, and so on down to the sixth string.
And, yes, it would be diabolical for someone to make charts and not note "Guit" or "transp 8va" or "Concert" or whatever the case....but those people exist.
Transposing at the octave is just so similar...it's, for me, sometimes confusing if it's in concert or transposed for guitar. Obviously, it sorts itself out when you play it, but it's a strange extra step. Maybe the grand staff is better for guitar. No, probably not, but it's one of those tiny irritations.
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Only if he doesn't see the 8 below the clef symbol. That means "an octave below written", speaking concert pitch. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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There’s no consistency to it
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Every now and then you learn something late that you should have known early. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
So, if the arranger wants the piano to play the same part as the guitar, in the same octave, he can add that 8 hanging off the clef and the pianist will play the same octave as the guitar. I have seen that on some charts.
What happens in the guitar part? Presumably, if there is a C one ledger line below the staff, that's A string, 3rd fret. What if the part is supposed to be transposed up an octave, to match the piano? How is that notated? Just 8va someplace? Or can you put an 8 at the top of the clef?
(This is the result of no formal musical education. Every now and then somebody points out something you should have known). Thanks.
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Yes indeed! I worked with a composer aeons ago that did that. He was fully schooled at a place called Mannes College of Music, so I believed him when he told me how to read his parts. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Thanks for that. Wikipedia agrees. I can't recall seeing it, but I'll keep looking. Originally Posted by ccroft
Meanwhile, when the guitarist and pianist get the same chart, if they play the same line, the guitar is going to be an octave lower.
This thread has been very helpful. Thanks to all.
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Until someone takes out a pencil... Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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