Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[Litterick]

That was unexpected.

[James W]

I would teach them more theory but then I would have to neglect the work on new keys.

We don't use capo.

I wasn't suggesting using a capo, I just said to visualise the neck as though you were using a capo - which I believe is the CAGED system.

So, if you don't have time to teach your students about harmonies other than TSD without apparently compromising them in other ways, so be it - just do what you have to do for your job.

If a child is curious enough they will learn that stuff in their own time. I received guitar lessons at school from the age of 10 but unlike other instruments we weren't taught to read music. Around the age of 14 I bought a book called The Complete Guitarist by Richard Chapman and from that taught myself to read music and absorbed all the basic theory about keys etc.

[ragman1]

Let's be clear about all this, shall we?

I have nothing against username, sorry, emanresu. But I don't know which country he's from. I don't know how old he is. I don't know if the curriculum is State-controlled or not. In short, I don't know much.

I do know that he feels wrong about what he's doing. He said in the OP it's bugged him all his life. However old he is, that's a long time. And, apart from sharing his angst, I'm not sure what he wants out of posting here.

Apparently he doesn't agree with what he's teaching. I don't really know why. If it's because he thinks the methods are wrong then why doesn't he leave and teach somewhere else? Or maybe he can't... etc, etc.

Perhaps he could tell us. I'd appreciate that rather than talking in circles about keys and key sigs.

[pamosmusic]

It’s possible I missed something, but is he even a teacher?

[ragman1]

Exactly. Even that's not clear. A lot of his answers are indirect. Humorous sometimes but not direct and straightforward.

Perhaps he's just a victim of the system. In that case a bit of researching for himself would correct it. Problem over.

[Bobby Timmons]

He's re.

[ragman1]

What is re?

[pamosmusic]

Exactly. Even that's not clear. A lot of his answers are indirect. Humorous sometimes but not direct and straightforward.

Perhaps he's just a victim of the system. In that case a bit of researching for himself would correct it. Problem over.

Im not sure this is a problem. Hes just curious. Youre sort of making this weird dilemma about his employment situation where I’m not sure there is one.

[ragman1]

That's what I'm saying, we're more or less trying to discuss/answer something we know practically nothing about. He's not 'curious', he's actively complaining or confused about something to do with music education which has bugged him all his life (I quote).

[pamosmusic]

That's what I'm saying, we're more or less trying to discuss/answer something we know practically nothing about.

Thats never stopped us before.

[ragman1]

You're not really meeting what I'm saying. We need answers from emanresu to resolve this.

[pauln]

What is re?

Re, a drop of golden sun

[AllanAllen]

Re is the 31st key. Wait till you hear about Io# it's based on the Juperian scale, you need to use the Juperian quatratonic lunar scale and sharp the tonic.

I'll be here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitstaff and have a safe drive home.

[emanresu]

I wasn't suggesting using a capo, I just said to visualise the neck as though you were using a capo - which I believe is the CAGED system.

We learn the 1st position in the early years and climb upwards gradually.

When using standard patterns to teach them keys, they will not know much about the notes in them, just the fingering.
We do that at some point but this is very far from what the theory classes are doing and requiring from us.

[ragman1]

Re, a drop of golden sun

emanresu is a drop of golden sun.

[emanresu]

Exactly. Even that's not clear. A lot of his answers are indirect. Humorous sometimes but not direct and straightforward.

Perhaps he's just a victim of the system. In that case a bit of researching for himself would correct it. Problem over.

I haven't heard "a lot of direct questions" during this thread and I haven't given a lot of answers. A few. Comments and explanations. A fix for a mistake.
Couple of "???"s.

Hm, from Christian "what do you want to achieve?", I didn't get to answering that but it is very simple: I wanted to collect thoughts of the situation:
Formal music schools for kids emphasizing learning very basic things in very many keys.
Desired achievement: collect thoughts.

What was your direct question to me? There are way too many pages to read through again, mostly just debating about keys.

[ragman1]

emanresu -

Thanks.

What was your direct question to me?

Where are you from? Which country are we talking about?

Are you, or were you, a music teacher? And, if you are, are you teaching this 30 keys stuff?

Or did you go to a music school when young and were taught the curriculum which has bugged you your whole life?

What exactly has bugged you about it?

[emanresu]

1.Where are you from? Which country are we talking about?

2.Are you, or were you, a music teacher? And, if you are, are you teaching this 30 keys stuff?

3.Or did you go to a music school when young and were taught the curriculum which has bugged you your whole life? Or maybe you were both pupil and teacher.

4.What exactly has bugged you about it?

1.Estonia

2.I am a guitar teacher in kids music school. Been doing that for 20 years.
Every lesson we spend 10 minutes to either go through many keys (then we play one particular scale in many keys) or get a new key and play the scale and T, S, D chords in it.

3.I was in music school(s) and did the same thing through myself.

4.As a pupil, I started to feel uncomfortable to play music (longer, more complex pieces) with almost no knowledge about how are all the chords organized, named etc.
It bugged me to only remember by fingers... Hm, fingers could play a 3-minute thing and I had absolutely no clue what was going on... well, I knew those basic T S D, dim..
During my 10 years in formal music schools, I only got to know about the fact that there is something I don't know about. Went to jazz college and found it out there.. heh.
Now it bugs me that I teach the same way. Occasionally I inject in some "common knowledge" about all the chords in a scale, or what is a 7th, 9th chord, all that nice and practical stuff, but there is not enough time,
can't do it constantly.

[ragman1]

emanresu, thank you. I've met other people from Estonia!

I was going to ask you before if you were actually both a pupil and a teacher. I had the feeling you were.

During my 10 years in formal music schools, I only got to know about the fact that there is something I don't know about. Went to jazz college and found it out there.. heh.

Now it bugs me that I teach the same way. Occasionally I inject in some "common knowledge" about all the chords in a scale, or what is a 7th, 9th chord, all that nice and practical stuff, but there is not enough time,
can't do it constantly.

Ah, now I see. Do you have to teach the same way? Does the school make you do it that way?

You know, I think time has to be made if you don't want your pupils also to be bugged their whole life! Seriously, if the school is allowing you some freedom, could you not arrange your lessons differently?

[emanresu]

Ah, now I see. Do you have to teach the same way? Does the school make you do it that way?

You know, I think time has to be made if you don't want your pupils also to be bugged their whole life! Seriously, if the school is allowing you some freedom, could you not arrange your lessons differently?

I have to cover the stuff they are learning in theory classes. When there's a test coming (they even call it like "test of Cis-minor"), I'd better do it.
Last time I tried to focus on what happens inside a scale (in a few comfortable keys) for too long (a year), I got a a nasty message from theory teacher like "you kid doesn't know any keys at all >"

I can arrange extra time for this.. perhaps 7 minutes more, but that's not enough if the theory class doesn't also teach it.

[Bobby Timmons]

As a pupil, I started to feel uncomfortable to play music (longer, more complex pieces) with almost no knowledge about how are all the chords organized, named etc.It bugged me to only remember by fingers... Hm, fingers could play a 3-minute thing and I had absolutely no clue what was going on... well, I knew those basic T S D, dim.. During my 10 years in formal music schools, I only got to know about the fact that there is something I don't know about. Went to jazz college and found it out there.. heh.

Now it bugs me that I teach the same way. Occasionally I inject in some "common knowledge" about all the chords in a scale, or what is a 7th, 9th chord, all that nice and practical stuff, but there is not enough time, can't do it constantly.

That makes sense. I've thought about if I taught, how I would integrate the practical knowledge I've learned in 20 years as a jazz musician. Knowing how to pretty much explain anything. When beginner pedagogy is extremely limited in what it teaches and there's so much to build on to be able to grasp music on a realistic level. Still I would try to integrate the practical stuff and not give up and just do mechanical, unrealistic beginner pedagogy.

[ragman1]

emanresu -

So are the theory classes separate from the learning and performance on their instruments? Do you arrange concerts?

[emanresu]

Concerts three times a year(grades) + 2-4 public ones.
2 theory lessons for groups, 2 individual for instrument and 1 music history lesson per week.

[AllanAllen]

Are you teaching only guitar? If it's only guitar, I don't see how you need 7 years to learn three chords in all the keys. It can be covered entirely in 4 moveable grips.

I don't understand the hangup.

Edit: actually 3 grips

Key of G
Grip 1: 355433
Grip 2: x35553
Grip 3: x545xx

1 and 2 can be both T and S as needed. They're both simply a major chord.
Grip 3 can be moved to the E string (545xxx) and shifted as needed.

[ragman1]

Concerts three times a year(grades) + 2-4 public ones.
2 theory lessons for groups, 2 individual for instrument and 1 music history lesson per week.

And are you just teaching the theory?